Making Work Meaningful: workplace culture & legacy with Prina Shah

Victoria: Hi, everybody, and a very warm welcome to Cultural Communication Confidence with me, Victoria Rennoldson. And I’m very excited. I have a guest with me here today, Prina Shah, all the way from Perth, Australia. Thank you so much, Prina for joining us here today.

Prina Shah: Hello, Victoria. It’s great to be here. Thank you so much for the invite.

Victoria: Absolutely. Well, when I started following you, I think we got introduced through a common connection. I knew I would love to have you on this podcast. And there is so much here for the listeners and people who watch this to learn. And, particularly because I love the way that you talk about you want to make work more meaningful.

So tell me, why isn’t work meaningful for many people today?

Prina Shah: Oh, let’s get into it. So I have been researching this and working on this at length. Victoria, as you know, my book, my upcoming book, which is out shortly, is called make work meaningful, how to create a culture that leaves a legacy. And the first chapter actually talks about that feeling that a lot of my clients and a lot of the, people that I’ve worked with have. Ah, you have reached the apex of your career, Victoria. You should be happy. You should be shouting from the rooftops. But internally, something doesn’t feel quite right. There’s a, feeling that, meh. Feeling something is a miss. So I’ve been really working hard, long and hard to consider what that missing piece is. And from my perspective and from the work that I’ve done with my clients, it is the fact that people may be working from an ambitious perspective, but they haven’t considered the meaning that they bring to the workplace or that extra piece of the meaning of my work and why I am here today. So one of the things I really talk about in the book and I ask people about, it’s a really practical book, Victoria. In the first chapter, I cover all of this, and it’s such a huge concept for all of us. Right? I don’t know about you. You’ve worked in corporate jobs before. I have as well. And, you know, it looks wonderful on your cv, but internally, you think, eh, that’s all right.

So one of the questions I ask in the book is, have you been dragged into your career, Victoria, you’re such a specialist in this. Come join my team, Victoria, you’re so excellent at this. Come work on this project. So have you been dragged into your career, or have you actually driven it? So one of the things that I find a lot when people don’t feel right with their career and they don’t feel that their work is meaningful, it’s because they are not the architect of their career.

Victoria: I love that. Not the architect. So it’s really about the fact that sometimes careers happen by accident, even if somebody has achieved what looks like on paper, amazing, amazing success. So what happens at that point then? Because obviously what I recognize as well, with some of the clients I work with, it’s hard to walk away from that. You know, you’ve achieved like the status, perhaps it is about, you know, some of the kudos that goes with that. Sometimes it’s about the pay grade, some of it’s about the satisfaction. Some of the work can be satisfying. But then how can you move yourself forward from that? Because that must be, I mean, I suppose the million dollar question, right. But how do you move yourself out of that? Because it can feel like almost you’ve backed yourself into a corner. Like I can imagine for some people, and I know some of my clients do, talk about this a bit.

Prina Shah: Yeah, beautiful question. So again, this is more the case of I know you work in a similar manner as well. It’s understanding yourself, first off. So understanding first off, oh, was I actually dragged into this career or did I drive it? So it’s doing a bit of an audit on yourself, first off, to really consider what’s happened in your career. That’s step number one. And then step number two is, okay, that’s happened. Whatever’s happened, whether you’ve been dragged into your career or you have driven it, there’s something that’s happening that you’re feeling still, that’s not meaningful from a career perspective. So what is it? Let’s tap into that, and I call it the achievement and legacy paradox. Yes, you may have achieved so much in your career, but have you left a meaningful legacy? Or you are already starting to leave a meaningful legacy. The leaders I’ve worked with who leave their little breadcrumbs of legacy are far more happier than the ones who are ambitious, full stop. And focus on achievement full stop. So that’s the other factor.

Victoria: I’m sorry to jump in, but I just want to be clear, because when you talk about legacy, because that feels like a really big weighty word, and legacy might sound like I’ve got to do something enormous, but when you say breadcrumbs are legacy, I’m like, oh, what does that actually mean? What does that look like?

Prina Shah: Let’s discuss that then. So, legacy. Yes, legacy from a perspective of semantics is, oh, what legacy do I want to leave for the world? No, what legacy do you want to leave for your current job or for your current project? Victoria, it could be something as beautiful as I want to leave the team better off after I leave this job. I want this project to be a success. Or it could be. I want trying, to think out loud now. I want to leave the financial accounts far better off than when we started off with. So that is your little legacy, because you’ve been working on it. You’ve been working d*** hard on it. So stepping into you and what drives you for the current state that you’re in, to leave that little breadcrumb right now to get you to that next stage. So I have, I have a whole self assessment in the book as well, to consider what kind of legacy you want to leave. So, you know, legacy from a perspective. Ah, that word does scare people. And thank you for bringing that up as well. You know, you could be an individual contributor within a workplace. You could be a leader within the workplace. You can be a team within a workplace, or you can be the executive team. What legacy do you want to leave? So if you look at it from that mini perspective of legacy, of what good do we want to do, how do we want to make this workplace better right now, in the next year, in the next two years, it’s far more achievable and it’s far more, graspable if you can get that, you know. Yes, I can do that.

Victoria: I love that idea. And I think, for me, that’s really interesting because there are so many different takes, and it depends on what motivates you. Right. So some people, that is about financials, commercial benefits, legacy that they want to create. For others, it might be about the team spirit or what they want to introduce into organizational culture to make the difference, make the legacy. Right?

Prina Shah: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And it is different for every single one of us. absolutely. So. And that’s what the book taps into and gets you to pull out for yourself.

And this is one of the things, let’s be honest, the workplace often doesn’t get you to do that because you’ve got your performance and development plan that’s very linked to that strategic goal, to, you know, to the organization’s needs. But what are your needs? That’s. That’s where I’m trying to get people to get to. So what about you? What do you need? And I think often that’s the missing piece that people haven’t considered because we go down our merry way. That’s how we’ve all been conditioned, you know, and a lot of workplaces, Victoria, also, we, they pitch people against each other, so they create that competitiveness, you know? So if you and I are peers and we’ve got that whole, you know, the ranking system of our performance and, you know, performance related pay, if we’re in that kind of world as well, then we kind of battle against each other rather than work together. so the book tries to undo that kind of stuff as well, and tries to look at you from that holistic perspective as to what you need to be that architect of your own career. And what are your needs to make work meaningful? And how do you move from ambition to meaning now in your career as.

Victoria: That’s so brilliant. I love those ideas, and those concepts are really resonating with me. So being the architect of your career, really thinking about meaning, rather ambition for its own sake, although ambition can be a positive thing as well. And so that’s about making meaning for individuals, ourselves, like, really. And it sounds like it’s very practical kind of advice and tips and exercises in the book, which is great.

I’m curious, though, for the people who are leaders of teams already, how can they understand how to make work meaningful for their team? How do they take that approach?

Prina Shah: Beautiful. Beautiful. It’s a very similar approach to the kind of work that you do, Victoria. So I know that you get individuals to understand themselves, but then we have to articulate our needs as well, because, hey, people can’t read my mind. So we have to articulate our needs as a collective, which is that team perspective. And then the leader needs to understand everybody’s needs and create a cohesive unit, which drives and propels the team forward. And without that understanding of each other and that deeper connection that I know you really talk to at length, we don’t have that meaningful work. We don’t have that meaningful camaraderie either. We’re not going to have meaningful conversations otherwise, either. you know, you’re talking from a comms perspective, and if we don’t connect properly, there’s such a missing piece there, which I feel is potentially, a real loss for individuals, teams, and organizations. And, you know, all of the buzzwords. We talk about belonging, we talk about psychological safety, all of the good stuff. Why are we still going on and on and on about that? We’ve known about this for years. We’re still talking about it. Something is still missing. So from the perspective of, the individual, tap into yourself from the leader’s perspective. You really need to know, obviously yourself, but then really need to tap into your team’s perspectives and their needs as well. And at that executive level, we take it up a notch to really understand what the external world needs from your organizational perspective and then how you can bring your people along that journey as well.

Victoria: yeah, and, I mean, I know the world of work has rapidly evolved over the last few years, right? I mean, that goes without saying.

I’m really curious. Like, this is, we’re recording this at the end of 2024, in case anybody’s watching in the future on the replays. So I’m really curious, like, what do you see as, the real challenges for leaders right now? Like, what’s sort of really top of mind for the people you’re working with and supporting in this space?

Prina Shah: Okay. There’s a few things. So the real challenges for leaders, because of the fact that we are working in such a global and diverse, beautiful manner, that’s a good thing. But there’s also a bad thing that comes from that. And I call that lone ranger teams, Victoria. So, you know, I am based in Australia, you’re based in London. We’re in the same team. but we don’t work as one. We’re not unified as one. I do my thing, you do your thing. We work separately, even though we’re supposed to work under the one banner. And I know this is a quirk that so many leaders really come across as an issue in terms of, you know, getting their team together. So that is a huge, huge problem for our, leaders to get that cohesive unit and to get that one voice, I guess I could call it, from that team perspective as well. That’s the huge missing piece from a leadership perspective. The other missing piece, I know you really talk at length about this as well, is getting people to connect with each other in that one to one perspective as well.

The other thing I really talk about in the book is creating moments that matter. Now, this is all about that.

Victoria: I like that. Moments that matters. What does that look like? Yeah.

Prina Shah: So it’s not fluffy stuff like, you know, the generic town hall meetings. That’s the traditional stuff, which are brilliant things, and we still need them. But, what are the moments that matter specifically for your team? So, for example, you know, I’ve managed many a HR team when I was working in corporate days, huge teams. The moments that mattered for my teams varied from team, from team to team, based on the culture, based on the capability of the team, and based on their needs as well. So, for one team, for example, moments that matter, we would break down projects, you know, we’d have a post mortem and just rip the whole project apart and say, okay, what was the good, the bad and the ugly about this? And let’s document all of this. That was a moment that really mattered because we were heavily project focused for another team. We were doing really well, really high achieving. So moments that mattered for us in that respect for that team was getting together to celebrate donut dates is what I used to call them. So we used to have donuts together. You know, they were brilliant moments that mattered. So, for yourself, as a leader, if you’re listening to this, or a team member, if you’re listening to this, you know, what are the moments that really matter for you which aren’t there yet? What can you create? And there’s so much that we can do from that perspective. communication and cross cultural communication absolutely comes into all of this as well as, you know. yeah. Moments that matter, you have to create them for yourself.

The other bugbear that I really have, Victoria, if we’re talking about this, is that organizations rely heavily on culture, surveys and this tool and that tool. Now, the issue that I have is that, this tool, this culture survey tool, has its own lingo. It doesn’t have your lingo. It doesn’t have your own vernacular of your organizational culture, or the way that you want to lead or the way that you want to drive the organisation or the team. So I say rip up that kind of lingo of other culture surveys and whatnot, and create your own way and your own language, you know, to make work more meaningful. What is it that really resonates with your people? Because telling them that, you know, human synergistics, we need to be more achievement focused or more human, you know, ah, self actualizing. That’s fluffy words. That means nothing to me. It’s just, you know, in one ear and out of another.

So what is it that you can do to create a shared language within the workplace as well, which is really, really important, you know, which I know you talk at length about.

Victoria: Yeah, I love that. And I think, for me, that’s really interesting, because we often hear these, like, you talked about buzzwords like psychological safety or belonging. And these concepts, I’m not trying to belittle them because they are incredibly important concepts I also talk about in my work. And yet they can become meaningless if we use them generically, if we are overusing them, if we’re not really understanding how to apply them. Actually, I’m a big one for actually getting beyond insights and going, well, what are we actually going to do about this? So I think I love what you’re saying here. Deeply, deeply resonates with me.

I had a follow up question, though. These moments of meaning. I love this idea of creating meaningful moments. One of the big challenges I know that people listening to this will have is that, they want to create this, but they’re just not in the same physical space in the same country as these people. Other people, they’re virtual. So what I think about is, in my old days, in my old career, we’d have team building days or team building activities. Some of it was more fun oriented. Some of it was more social, and informal and spontaneous, like drinks. Sometimes it was more about really, focusing on our team spirit and a more focused, structured approach. How can teams do this today? Or how can leaders really create more meaningful moments that, ah, when they’re just not in the same place? That it’s a totally virtual team? Because that’s a real question that comes up time and time again for me.

Prina Shah: Excellent question. I’m working with quite a few global teams, actually, on, yeah, all of this. So you can do this. So the wonder of technology. First off, let’s use it wisely. Okay? So we have so much technology at our hands, let’s use it wisely, and let’s not overwhelm people. Let’s not have a million things on teams, on, you know, on, messenger and whatever else happens as well within your workplaces, let’s keep it simple. And you still can have decent development sessions online, by the way. And I know you do many of them as well, don’t you? So it can be done, and it is being done globally. It is being done virtually as well. But with those sessions, you have to be far more, pointed, I guess, as a facilitator to really get the best out of people. And from that perspective, Victoria, if we’re talking about team development from an online perspective, if that’s the way that some teams do have to lead, then you have to have real engagement from the get go. So the kind of things that I do as a facilitator is, you know, especially yourself, Victoria, you might come across this as well. You know, you’re brought in, like, who is this person? Who are they? So, first off, I’ll send a little video. Hey, I’m Prina. I’m going to be facilitating the session. Can you think about three things just to, blah, blah, blah. So just warming people up, first off, because we all think differently, we all talk differently. We all process information differently as well. That’s the first thing. So if we’re talking from an online perspective, and then there’s so many conversations that you can have from an online perspective and team development perspective that is still really meaningful. So some of the things that I do, there’s reflective activities that you can do as a team to really work out, you know, what’s worked well, what hasn’t from everybody’s perspective. And, and the leader of that, session just shushes. They do not talk because we don’t want their opinion first off, because that can really affect groupthink. So we really have to be careful with that. online, there’s other fun things you can do. You know, so many other teams that I work with have little WhatsApp chats that they do great things on. We can still celebrate people’s birthdays, you know, virtually online. There’s so many other things we can still do. One team I’ve got who I’ve been working with for a whole year, virtually, ah, coming together in person next month, I can’t wait to see them as well. But all of this online work that we’ve been doing is going to be the culmination of the end session that we’re going to have in person. So you can do it online or in person. Absolutely. So there’s so many, moments that matter that you can create. Absolutely. So. And use technology for good and not for annoyance sake, you know, I love that.

Victoria: And I think it’s really, it sounds like it’s about being very creative, very intentional, in fact, and how you mindfully, create it. And actually it’s making sure that they still happen, I suppose. Because I think that’s the interesting thing. I think the thing I feel is that, in the drive for getting things done, sometimes these things fall off the agenda.

Prina Shah: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, you know, the busy leader, oh, Victoria, is in London, I’m in Perth. I don’t have time for our one to one today. I’m so sorry. You know, drop that little thing. That little thing can come and, grow into a big thing, a bigger thing, a bigger thing. these moments of connection as well.

So let’s talk about one to ones. It is so important, especially if you’re working globally, if you’re working from a virtual perspective. We need to connect with that individuals that we are reporting to. You know, I still have my needs. I still have, you know, all of the needs that I need to share with my leader. So communication from that leadership perspective is so different now, as you know, Victoria, especially from that online perspective, because we have to connect now at, such a different level if it’s all online as well.

Victoria: Yeah, absolutely. I love these ideas, and thank you for sharing those. I think that’s some really useful, practical ways that people can take away. So that’s the current moment.

I’m really curious, like, when you look forward, then. So how do you see the future work evolving? You know, what do you see coming up or what’s going to come in new that, you know, leaders will really need to think about and consider?

Prina Shah: Great question. Okay, so one of the other things I’ve really been focusing on is organizational culture. So that’s what I specialize in. And, organizational culture from our current and historic perspective has been very cognitive based. Okay? Cognitive based in that x plus, y equals productivity and efficiency. Okay? We are not cogs in a wheel. No. The missing piece is bringing that, emotive aspect to an organizational culture. How do we want people to think, to feel, to behave? That’s where you really tap into the needs and the hearts and the minds of people, and communication is everything then. Right. So we need to communicate even more effectively if that’s what we’re trying to do. Yeah. So, the evolution of the workplace, I think, is moving from the cognitive understanding of organizational culture to make us money, to the emotional understanding of organizational culture to make people feel connected, to ensure that people feel like they belong, to make sure that they truly contribute and can be themselves as well, and leave their legacy, whatever it might be, huge or mini, you know, wouldn’t that.

Victoria: Be just an amazing question that, a leader could ask all of their team, you know, what is a legacy you want for yourself here? And actually, that is something we don’t often consider. I think you’re right. You know, people think in quarters in a year maximum about performance objectives. But legacy and what you want leave. That’s a really interesting concept. A really interesting concept. And I love how you also thinking about, you know, where does it go next? And interestingly, you talked about, you know, how do we want our people to feel? Actually, that is one of the questions I ask when I’m helping people with communication. How do you want people to feel like, what’s your intention? Not just the goal of what you want to say, but what’s the intention behind it and the energy behind it? And that’s the bit that we sometimes miss. We get so focused on words rather than what goes behind the words. Oh, my goodness. This is really, really fantastic.

And one of the things I’m really curious about, obviously, we met through LinkedIn, through mutual connections. And I’ve been following you for a little while, and I know you’ve been talking and reflecting quite a bit about what success looks like for you. And I know you had sort of a milestone, recently. lots going on. For example, the book launch. But that’s a really interesting question. What does success look like? You know, is that part of legacy, or is that something slightly different for you?

Prina Shah: What a huge question. A brilliant question. So, for me, success looks like from my business perspective, I have two, two definitions. from my business perspective and all of the work that I’m doing, I want to ensure that I have a positive impact on finding positive ways to change a workplace. We spend more of our time during the waking day with our colleagues than we do with our loved ones. It has to be a good place to be. Why? That’s because people take crappy jobs home, they take it to their families, they take it to the little communities, they take it to their societies. And then the world is impacted by crappy jobs as well. Like, there’s that outer effect as well. So we need to make work meaningful and we need to find positive ways to change the workplace. That’s my mission for my business, personally, for myself. You know, I’ve had many a reflective moment. I turned 45 recently. I’ve become an author. So there’s big milestone moments. My mom’s been here from the UK as well. So, you know, when your parents are here, you get especially reflective. My personal, legacy is to secure a good future for myself and for my mom’s future as well.

Victoria: Yeah, that’s amazing. And what an amazing, amazing. I mean, congratulations, first of all, for the birthday, for the book, which is incredibly exciting. but also, I think, you know, you talk quite a bit. I noticed, you know, you talked on recently about your mom and the reflection that comes with her being there for you. And I think that’s really interesting point about, you know, you were there revealing, think, personal things about yourself as a. As a leader, a thought leader, and actually that invited other, you know, reflections and comments from other people about their own personal, you know, what’s going on for them personally. And I thought that was a really, you know, I mean, that’s not a guaranteed process, but that idea of as a leader opening up and sharing more about what’s going on for you and how that then comes back, as well, from others, it’s huge.

Prina Shah: And just asking people, how do you define success? You know, as you just asked me, we all have such a different definition of it. If you just take one thing from this episode, please go and ask your people, your team, who report to you, leaders, how would you define success for yourself? And, listen to the conversation that comes, or you will be so, so pleased with it, and then please take action and do something with that as well.

Victoria: Yeah, brilliant. So I love that. So one take out, how do you define success for you? So, asking your people, that’s a brilliant, really brilliant takeout. So thank you so much, Prina.

Now, we’ve mentioned the book a few times. Do you want to just talk a little bit about kind of when the book’s coming out, when people can get hold of it, where it’s available? Just because obviously we have a very global audience here, I’m sure many people will want to follow up and perhaps get hold of some of the practical exercises and tools that you talked about here today.

Prina Shah: Absolutely. So my book is called make meaningful how to create a culture that leaves a legacy. It’s a super practical book. It is on sale on Amazon from the 23 October. So google it. Yep. Just check on Amazon. Make work meaningful by Prina Shah and I’ll give you the link to it as well. Victoria. Yeah, excellent.

Victoria: Well, make sure we have the links there. I know I’ll be getting my copy as well. Looking forward to reading this. And, you know, many, many congratulations. I know how big a thing it is to not only write a book, but actually to get it out into the world, to really kind of make sure it’s out there. So I’m sure that’s going to be an incredible resource for the leaders and future leaders who are listening. Fantastic. If people, obviously there is the book. If people want to follow you, want to find out more about you, to listen to the podcast, can you just remind people where are the best places to kind connect with you then?

Prina Shah: Absolutely. So, LinkedIn is my office. I call it. So connect with me. Prina Shah is my name. Instagram is my playground. So you’ll see a lot of personal stuff behind the scenes, all of the crazy stuff that goes on. So, Prina Shah on Instagram and my podcast is called ways to change the workplace.

Victoria: Excellent. And it’s a great podcast. So I do highly encourage everybody to go and have a listen. And again, we’ll put all of Prina’s links in the show notes so you can go and follow her listen to the podcast, get the book.

Amazing, Prina thank you so much. I’ve greatly, greatly enjoyed this conversation, and I found it really, really kind of thoughtful about this idea of what does it mean to have meaningful work. And this, various soundbites I’ve had in my head around being the architect of your career, the breadcrumbs of your legacy, asking people about what success looks like for them, rather than assuming your version is everyone’s version. There’s been such richness here, and I’m deeply appreciative of you joining us when it’s, I suppose, reasonably late for you in Australia, but to share all this wisdom. So thank you so much. I really, really appreciate it.

Prina Shah: My absolute pleasure. I have loved it.

Victoria: Excellent. And I’ll look forward to seeing everybody next time on Cultural Communication Confidence.