The no-resume / no-CV future of recruitment: How AI is changing hiring

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Hi everybody. And a very warm welcome to Cultural Communication Confidence with me, Victoria Rennoldson. And I’m really excited to have a guest with us today. We have Carol Constance joining us from Czechia. Hello, Carol. Hi. Hello. Hi, Victoria. Very happy to be here today. Fantastic. Well, you know, we met a couple of months ago, at the Digital Women Awards and you won an amazing award there. So many congratulations for this one. Thank you. I was very, very happy because in a way I did not expect it. So I was surprised when I heard my name. And the way I see it, the award was for Leader of the Year is not just because I achieved something, but because I help so many other people achieve positions in leadership. And that’s what made me very, very proud of it. And I wanted to congratulate you as well. Well, thank you. So, yes, I’ve just also won an award, so thank you, Carol. I really appreciate that. The Trailblazer Award. So thank you so much. I loved how you framed that, it’s obviously something which is amazing for personal recognition, but it’s also about all the other people that we work with and help. Right, exactly, exactly. Especially where we are, you know, what we both are doing. So yes, definitely. That’s what makes me the most, you know, the prouder about it. Yes. Excellent. Now, one of the things that I was really interested in when we first met was you have this amazing app, this kind of game which is all about understanding different people and how they work. But very fascinatingly you’re using it in an intriguing way to help with teams and recruitment. Do you want to just explain a little bit more about this?

Yes. So as you say, we have an app and then we have a platform connected to the app to get all the data, etc. So what we use it is for team fit. So, for recruitment, for example, or for team building. To make sure that when we are building teams, we are putting people in teams, we take into consideration how they are going to work together. So the team synergies is not just, that you are taking one person for a position. They are not going to work alone, correct so you need to also take into consideration all these other aspects that people they are going to be working with. And also because nowadays, with the use of AI CVs, and cover letters are not a true reflection of what they were called before, character letters. They are not anymore. They are done by AI or by a professional. So, yeah, that’s very limiting.

Understand. Now team fit is obviously not a new concept or idea because, you know, clearly through the recruitment process, the recruiting manager or the HR team are often trying to test this through the interview process. So how is your app different? How does it really test that team fit, accurately and give you that insight?

Yes, because we base it on two things. So it’s data. We have scores and so on. And also because the traditional way to do it we’re still using, we are in 2024, but we’re still using last Century: we are using questionnaires and we are using interviews. And these are very biased because if you ask me about myself, I’m going to ask you what I think about myself. But maybe that’s not how I am. So imagine, let’s, let’s stick to two extremes. Imagine someone who’s a narcissist, they’re going to say they are the best, they’re amazing. And imagine someone who’s got imposter syndrome, they’re going to say, oh, maybe you know, I’m okay. And this is what we get with these questionnaires. We get the self perception of the person, but not the real self. So what we are trying to do is, we don’t ask you any questions, we just ask you to play these games and based on your game strategy, we build the profiles. That’s the difference.

I love that. And it’s really fascinating because obviously what can happen in an interview process is it’s the person who can sell themselves in the best possible way that is the person who gets the job. But as you say, that might not be a true reflection. But of course there have been various personality testing, various other testing methodologies and I’m very aware, you know, when I was in my first career in marketing, I went through many of these types of testing, profiles to, for people to sort of get that insight. So how is this different?

So first of all, it’s not a test. Yes. And many of these tests, again it is, they’re asking you how are you or something. Yes. So we are asking you to play a game. So they are our games. And the way we see it is, you will be amazed of how different people play. And it’s just, you know, this kind of cognitive games, so for example, we are going to ask you the first question, we’re going to ask you to solve a puzzle. And yes it’s in many questionnaires but we are going to ask you to bet how sure you are of your answer. And some people, for example, they go straight to the 100. It’s an easy puzzle, it’s not a difficult one. And some people go straight to 100, but some people even answer 20 – 30 questions and they never ever hit 100. Never. So we are looking at your decision making, your risk profile, your confidence, problem solving and so on. From not asking you, just seeing what you do when you decide to start one game and finish another one, go up a level, a number of data points that we use to build a profile. So it’s not what you tell us, it’s what you do and that’s the difference.

I love that. And you very kindly gave me some access to the app and it’s really fascinating to play it because there is something about the, you know, how sure are you, you know, do you back yourself in certain situations, how quickly you make your decisions? And I found that all very, very intriguing. So how are sort of the companies, the clients that you work with, using it in real time? Like, so they would use this as part of the recruitment early on or towards the end of the process. How would you sort of normally recommend it?

Yes. So if they are using it for recruitment, normally what they do is at the end. So they have, you know, all the AI because if we’re talking about big companies they have hundreds and hundreds of CVs so they do the pre selection just using the normal tools that they would use. And so what we are doing is we are helping them with a shortlist of candidates because of this team fit. So team fit, cultural fit and so on. So imagine that they had, I don’t know, 100 applicants just, just for, and, and at the end of the process, even after interviews, we help them with the last five candidates for example.

That makes a lot of sense in terms of then making the decision point. But I’m kind of curious because I thought maybe I misheard but I thought you said something about CVS or resumes really being a little bit sort of out of date now or not the great best way to recruit and that’s quite challenging to what is really the main. So why do you think the CV or the resume is really outdated and not the best way to be recruiting right now?

Yes, because everybody is building their CVS and the Cover letter using ChatGPT or AI. They know that there’s an algorithm that’s going to pick keywords because there’s no other way, to train these algorithms but through keywords. And that’s a completely different way of when one person is looking at it, because they are looking at the overall big picture, let’s say, the algorithm cannot do it. They can only look at specific data for data collection. And so you are, every candidate is building these CVs according to the keywords that they can see on their job posting. And so everybody is mainly using the same thing just to get through this first filter. The same happens for cover letters. So after all of this as the main filter then is the human component. And that’s where we help with the human component. So one of the ways we do it, we help the companies is first of all we need to build a profile of the team. So we have the team. Imagine it’s a team of five people. One other person is going to come up there. How can you know what type of profile you need, or if you don’t need, what are the gaps or what are, you know, what is these people going to bring? There is not the same when you are, you already have five people and then you bring one more, but then you bring another two others. You know, it is a completely, it’s a completely different situation. So you need to see what you have first and then you need to see what to add. Imagine let’s, let’s give an example. Imagine that you are cooking soup. Yes. And you put salt and it is better. Yes. And maybe put a bit more and maybe it’s still okay, but if you keep adding salt, it’s going to be terrible. Yes. So that’s why we need a first assessment.

I love that, the soup analogy, that’s a really great one. And I think that’s also a really good point because sometimes team fit might not be like, recruiting somebody who’s the similar to the team, actually, it might be about complementary skills or complementary ways of thinking, and considering how to approach problems, for example, right? Right. It’s both, It’s both. So you need, you need some, that are the same and some that are complementary. So that’s how it works best in our instance. Interesting. And I know that one of the other topics I know you’re really passionate about is women, in leadership. And that’s a really passionate topic for you. I mean, I know you’re a woman, but why is it so personal to you? What is, you know, why is this like such a mission for you?

Well, you just said it. Of course, of course. Because I’m a woman. But also if you look at any research you know, MIT, et cetera. And you look at team performance because we are in team performance, that’s our space. And you look at what is it that makes teams perform best? They overlap. They overlap with female leadership because there are three points. Two of them is communication, you know, surprise, surprise, verbal communication, of course. And the third one is how many women are on the team. So both are, both come together. So women accessing leadership positions and teams performing better because women are there. And many people think why, are women so, so super? We are wonder women? Women all are amazing? So why is that? I just, I just wonder if anybody ever think because data show us that. Yeah. So if a woman comes into a team and the reason why is not only because of the woman, it’s not only because a woman is there. And this is amazing. It’s because of men in the team. Men behave differently when it’s only men or when there is women, the communication changes. The complete team synergy changes when there is one woman or there is two women, depending on the ratio. Correct. And that is why.

Interesting. Wow. I had never thought about it in that way before, but actually the dynamic and the blend is obviously so, so important. And of course you are a woman in a leader in tech as well, which is obviously traditionally been quite men led. So you know, how do you find that as a lead, women leader, in the space? I mean, have you come up against challenges, you know, establishing yourself with your business in that place?

Yes, definitely. So. So first of all, as you say, so woman tech is like, it doesn’t until very, very recently. So first of all I wanted to build my, my profile as an, as an expert, as a woman in tech. And that’s why, for example, I’m a Google ambassador for women in tech. So you need to be famous with the leadership. Yes. So you need to kind of put medals. Okay. She is this or she is that. And it’s been a learning experience because you get in touch with women all around the world that are in tech. Yeah. And then, yeah, you learn so much about what are some of the challenges, what are some of their strategies. Even myself, I have a technology company and I’m trying to get as many women as possible because I know is good for the team, etc. And it’s been a challenge, It’s a challenge. Still a challenge to find women.

And for women who are listening, who are working in perhaps in environments and industries which are traditionally more male Dominant. So, I’m just thinking I’ve been working with clients who are in the energy industry, who’ve been working in engineering. You know, what is it you think we women need to be successful in these kinds of environments? Is there a difference. Is it about mindset? Is it about skill set? Or is it about confidence? What is it for you, do you think?

I think for my experience, for a woman to be able to be successful in this type of environment is their ability to find allies. Because you cannot do it alone. It’s just not possible. You are one against, you know, many, too many. So is your ability to really build allies with male. And that, is just how. Well, you. Yeah, you cannot do it alone. Really, you cannot. It doesn’t matter if you are the best. You are super expert. You need to have that recognition that, like, oh, let’s listen to her, because she knows, so someone needs to sell you. So it doesn’t matter. It’s like when you have business, it doesn’t matter what you say, it’s what your clients say about you. Correct. So it is the same in business, and it’s the same for your career progression. So someone else needs to say about you, needs to be selling you. And that’s the key to get to high places.

So it’s really about identifying who are the key influences or allies. And, can almost advocate for you on your behalf. That’s really interesting. And does visibility come into this as well? So being able to be visible and feel comfortable being visible.
Exactly, exactly. And that’s why mentorship programs, sponsorship programs are so important. And also, we were saying before about teams and what teams are the most successful. Well, the teams where the people speak equally, so there’s no dominating voices. So it’s the same. It’s the same here. So you need to be able to be seen, to be heard, and that’s what will make you and your team perform their best.

And, you touched on communication styles, and obviously that is something I’m really passionate and interested in, particularly connected to leadership teams, to different cultural styles as well, of communication. And I’m sort of really interested. I mean, do you think women have a different sort of communication style to men? You talked about the impact of having a woman leader, in the team. But, you know, do you think there is a different style that women have then?

Yes, definitely. Definitely. for cultural reasons mainly. So we are educated, we are raised in different way. More collaborative, for example, a bit less Competitive. Even a woman who is very competitive. You know, we have a different style of communication and we tend to more to bring people together more. We for example, as part of our assessments, we do assessments as you know, in the app you don’t see it there, it is there but you cannot access it. We have to give you a code. But in our team assessments we also assess nonverbal communication. So we also will for example put a picture of some eyes. And what are these eyes saying? Yes, because we want to assess this non-verbal communication. And normally women perform better in this kind of nonverbal communication test that can be, you know, the experts will say they can have genetic and cultural, because women traditionally for millennia have took care of child, children, babies and they are non verbal obviously. So that’s something that is key and we are not utilizing it as much as we should. You know, the typical, the feminine intuition.

Yeah. And I love the way that you’re actually measuring also nonverbal communication because I am a great believer in, you know, communication is 360. It’s not just about the words or you know, being clear. Actually there is so much that goes on in the voice and the eyes, in our hand gestures, everything really. So I’m really interested that you’re also using this in your assessments. and I think you know the other angle which I’m, I’m also quite curious about because I know you’re based in Czechia and you’re working globally with different organizations and one of the things that obviously I’m really interested in is how do things change culturally? So when you kind of are potentially working with recruitment maybe with different markets, bringing in people from different cultural backgrounds, you know, how does that influence I suppose the team dynamic and how do you see it in your work?
It influences this enormously. Like our main, we as you say, we are based in Czechia, so close to Prague, beautiful city. And but our main market is Switzerland because Switzerland has no budget problems, you know, so our, our main customers are in Switzerland and Switzerland is very multicultural, is multi language. Yes. So they have different languages. But also to Switzerland, people from all over the world go to work there and it will be impossible to do team synergies and team assessment and so on without taking into consideration cultural aspects to it. And it is fascinating. I absolutely love it. So for example, to give you one example, we are now helping a big corporation and with engineers from all over the world and when we are doing the assessments and then we are sharing it with, the managers. And that comes into play. That comes into play because, for example, the type, what you say, the type of communication. Imagine somebody from Japan, someone from Southern, Southern Europe, or South America, because we get, people from all over there. Normally the communication style in the workplace is more hierarchical. you know, there is like, is considered even a lack of respect if you contradict a little bit your manager. Yes. Whereas we have also engineers from Australia, from the UK, from the Netherlands, from Switzerland, where democrats, where everybody talks and it’s absolutely normal. and that plays a big, big role in the communication in the team, in the, you know, psychological safety. They, first of all, the person needs to be aware of it also the manager needs to be aware of it. And normally we also recommend interventions because it might take a quite a long time for these people that are new to this new way of communicating to really get full, into full gear with this. Yes. And that might take two years even. we have seen profiles, you know, is. It takes a long time. The shorter you can make it. So they can contribute more and they can be more, yeah, bring all the other skills in their potential. The better, the much, much better will be for the team.

I can imagine. And what sort of interventions would you recommend in that sort of situation? So, you know, I know that obviously there are many sort of global headquarters in, European headquarters as well in Switzerland. Very, very diverse, very international. When you come across these kind of challenges with kind of very diverse cultures, perhaps people having very different communication styles, do you have something that you normally recommend then?

Yes. So the way, first of all we do an assessment and one of them is, so, you know, we are gamification. Yes. So one of our games that give us a lot of information is one game that we call the Boss is Always Right. Love it. It’s a brilliant name for game. Yes, yes, yes. So we’re playing games. We’re playing our games. And first, beforehand we, talk to the boss and we say, well, look, choose any of the questions, but once the team has decided, let’s say option A, you’re going to say, oh, well, I actually see option B. Yes. So he needs to go against the team and when we tell them this, every single boss goes, oh, they’re going to tell me immediately. Yeah, yeah, you will see. No, no, you will, you will see. They are amazed. They are looking at me like, I cannot believe what is happening here. Yes. So, and then we take note of everything. How not Just how they said what everybody said at every point. Because that dynamic is what happens when this happens again and they are not telling them what they really think they are a bit scared of telling them. So we start with this one and then once we have all this information we can see what is the right tool. Many times we recommend some coaching, people specialized in that particular area. And many times, , we also recommend a coach that speaks the language and knows the culture of that person. So it is very, it’s very personalized. But it doesn’t take that long because the most important is self awareness.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean I think with anything like this it really does start with recognition of what’s going on within yourself and with others. I love that approach of the gaming of that to be able to identify that as a challenge. So thank you for sharing that. Just moving on, I think one of the things that I’m really interested in is because you are obviously at the forefront of what is happening with assessment, thinking about the future of recruitment, how to make it more meaningful to bring the right team member in. How do you see it developing in the future? Because obviously everything feels like it’s moving quite fast. So I’m sure the listeners to this podcast are really curious, like how do you see it evolving over the next few years in recruitment? Yeah. So I see more alternatives like ours getting there into play. Because if the old tools are a bit old. Correct. So it is going to be very much building not just your technical skills. Yes. But also your team skills, soft skills, call it as you like, but based on data, not based on what you think. So yes, I see more and there are many more. I can name you a few. And a lot of big companies are doing it, smaller companies as well. So we are at the beginning. But this over the next five years is going to explode because, because the results are so good.

Love that and I think, you know, I’m absolutely, very much agreement about – I call them human skills. But human skills are really needed now more than ever. And I love the way that you can bring that measurement piece to it and a data piece to it. So, you know, I also work with sometimes with students who are sort of early career or people who are entering the workplace or even people coming off MBA kind of programs as well. So for those people who are sort of earlier in career or less experienced or perhaps they’re reinventing themselves right now, what kind of specific Skills do you think people should be focusing on and developing?

Well that very much depends on what is their focus. But I believe that number one is communication. I know it seems like, you know, but for example, talking about MBA, I was helping, I do mentoring and I was helping somebody get into a very prestigious MBA that you know, it goes by interview and it’s really expensive but still they only choose a handful of people and a lot of it goes into the interview. Correct. And that interview, that 10 minute interview is going to make or break her future, let’s say. Yeah, and I was preparing her for this. So you really need to be able to very be very good at interviews. That is a really fantastic skill. And some people are extremely good at interviews and then very bad at the jobs because they have master interviews. But the point is just master interviews, one of the things that people tend to do is they talk very quickly. They are very nervous, they want to say so much. But it really, you need to project this self confidence and you will not do it if you speak very quickly. And we tend to do that. So first of all I will suggest do a self assessment of yourself. Listen, record yourself. Listen to yourself. because if you ask your friends they are not going to be able to give you much information because this is biased. So to assess how are your communication skills now? I think it’s a great, great tip.

You know, sometimes what people are saying is so interesting, but they are, they keep saying this tag, this word that they repeat again and again. And it comes a moment that I cannot listen to it anymore. Sometimes in podcasts. Yes. And that’s so important. So first of all do an assessment of your communication. That’s key. And then you know in which direction you can go. Yeah, and I think that’s really great advice. You know, you can do so much by just recording ourselves and listening and watching back, even if that feels deeply uncomfortable. And it does for many, many people. We’re not used to listening to our own voices. In fact, I think I was reading some research recently that the way we hear our voices in our head is completely different from how it sounds when it’s recorded because of the physical, literally the distance. But yeah, I think these, these are great, great ideas about how to really also think about improvement in communication interviews. So what is next for WhomLab? What’s coming up? We’re sort of recording this towards the end of one year, a new year is starting very shortly. What’s kind of coming up next for you personally and for the business?

Yeah, so for the business, we were very lucky, that we got into a business accelerator that is very prestigious and is in Switzerland. And that’s why we got to work with, corporations because normally when you start, you work with smaller companies. Of course, we were also with smaller companies, but we got to work with multinationals. They are there in 50 countries, 10,000 employees. So our path for next year is keep these really big names there and even more and grow in the Swiss market. We are being so successful that we are even thinking to open a branch there. So, so let’s see what happens, what happens eventually. But, we love the market, not just because they have the budget, but also because they are so, you know, is the number one innovation country in the world. And just being there and just being among these people with this innovation mentality is oh, so rewarding.

Excellent, well it sounds like brilliant plans ahead. And you know, obviously, you know, I’m, I’m based in the UK but this podcast goes out internationally, people listen literally all over the world. so if people are kind of really curious about what they’ve heard here today, maybe might be a team leader listening or somebody in HR and thinking, actually this could be quite interesting, this assessment, looking at, team fit, even in recruitment. And they want to find out more about your app and your assessments. What is the best way for people to be sort of in touch with you, Carol?

Yes, so LinkedIn is an easy one or of course, our website and if you want to share my email address, happy to. Excellent. Well, we’ll put all the links in the show notes to your LinkedIn, to your website. And of course people can be in touch to sort of find out more. But I know myself, when I tried it out, it was really eye opening, and absolutely fascinating. A very different kind of gaming and testing to kind of understand my profile. So thank you for that.

But Carol, you know something I kind of like to ask people towards the end of the podcast and is a question, and that question is, you know, what is something you’ve learned about communication or even leadership recently? What’s something that you want to sort of share and leave with the audience?

Oh, okay. So I am fascinated by communication. So, so we are talking all the time about vision here today. So I guess you, you’ll know. But maybe some people listening, they don’t. I Pioneer at TEDx Women in Namibia, the very first one in the country. And, so I love communication. And so I read also because, of course, communication is vital in teams, so it’s all connected. And what fascinates me is how social media is shaping our communication and this polarization effect that is happening in society. So that is something that I’m reading and I’m listening more about. Because it’s going to be, it’s going to be a huge change over the next few years.

Absolutely. And yes, I think that’s a really sort of interesting conclusion because, of course, so much of kind of where many people go for information is places like, LinkedIn or other social media platforms as well. Amazing. Well, thank you so much, Carol, for sharing. Thank you so much for coming on the show. It’s been an absolute pleasure to have you on, today and I’ve really, really enjoyed this conversation. Yes, thank you very much. It felt short. I could be talking for a much longer time. No, I know. Well, we’ll continue the conversation offline, but in the meantime, thank you everybody and look forward to seeing you next time on the show.