Brave Self-Leadership & Boundaries with Mel Kettle

Victoria: Hi, everybody, and a very warm welcome to Cultural Communication Confidence with me, Victoria Rennoldson, and Mel Kettle. Welcome, Mel, to the show.

Mel Kettle: Oh, it’s so good to be here, Victoria, thank you so much for inviting me.

Victoria: Excellent. Well, I’m so pleased we could do this. You’re all the way over Australia. I’m in the UK. We found a time that worked. And so I’m really excited today to talk to you about all things leadership, communication, and I’ve got so much I want to ask you, but I want to start actually with – I saw a post that you shared actually, very much today on the day we’re recording this, which was about the idea of action and a story that you told about a wedding. And I was wondering whether you could share that here, because I thought it was a fascinating story with some really interesting kind of insights in it.

Mel Kettle: So I went to this wedding, gosh, 35 or more years ago when I was living in Canada, and I was the date, my boyfriend’s date. He knew the bride and groom really well, and his whole family did. And he invited me to go to this wedding in a small town. And we go, and I think there were probably about 150 guests and at least 100 of us traveled from somewhere else in Canada to get to this wedding. We’re sitting in the church waiting. Didn’t see the bride, obviously, but hadn’t seen the groom either, which was kind of odd to. And the wedding was due to start. And the minister came out about 20 minutes later and said, just want to let you know there’s been a slight delay. I think there’s an issue with the bride’s dress. There was no issue with the bride’s dress. So we’re sitting there going, yeah, yeah, okay, whatever. About another half an hour later, he comes out again and says, there’s still an issue. Don’t know what’s going on. And then about ten minutes later, he says, just go outside, get some fresh air, get a drink, come back in an hour. So we went back in an hour. No, still non news. Come back in another hour. 5 hours after the wedding was meant to happen, he comes and tells us that there will be no wedding and see you later. Right. So we didn’t get to eat the reception food. We were all starving by the stage. So we went to the local pizza place and had no idea what had happened. Eventually, we found out that the bride and groom both had cold feet, and they decided that it probably wasn’t a good day to get married. And it all got very ugly afterwards, and my boyfriend at the time, his mother was trying to mediate between the two of them, and it just wasn’t happening. So, yeah, so there was no wedding. And the thing that has always stayed with me is, how brave was that to call off their wedding with 150 or more people waiting for them? And, you know, we were in a small town, and so everybody knew the bride and the groom, and you can just imagine the gossip that happened afterwards. And I’ve always, whenever I’ve had to make a really hard decision, or whenever I’ve made a decision to do something and thought, how do I back out of that? Or how do I change my mind and how will I ever, you know, show my face again? I just think back to this couple and think, yeah, that was, if they can do it, I can do it.

Victoria: I think that’s a brilliant story. And I think, actually, it really applies to many of the people, probably, who listen here, who are either future global leaders, they’re managers, or they’re leaders themselves. Actually, sometimes it’s really hard to say no or actually, I’ve changed my mind. I don’t want to do this. I don’t think this is the right course of action. And so, you know, you talked about bravery there. How do we become more brave then? How do we kind of say no to things when we originally said yes?

Mel Kettle: I think it really comes back down to knowing what are your values and what do you really believe in and what are your core priorities, and. And then having a hard and honest conversation with the person you may have once said yes to. and, you know, I can just imagine this conversation between this bride and groom. Well, I know it was really ugly, and there were a lot of, it was really unpleasant, according to my, boyfriend’s mother. But they both decided together that they would walk away. And sometimes walking away is the best option for your mental health, your physical health, your sanity. and I’ve always believed, as well, that when a door closes, another door opens. And so you might not feel that when you’re in the, you know, the depths of making a really big decision or a hard decision like that. But opportunities come to people who make the big decisions.

Victoria: I love that, the idea of the door closing, but the other one opening is a brilliant concept. And, I wonder, you know, obviously, the bride and groom, we can only imagine what happened in that situation, but let’s apply it to somebody who’s listening here, who, you know, maybe they do need to have a tough conversation, which is I changed my mind, or we shouldn’t do this, even though we’re 50, 60, 70% down the road with this path of action. What are your tips? Even 100% right?

Mel Kettle: I’ve got clients. and I’ve certainly been in this situation where I’ve said yes to a job or yes to a client and then gotten a few weeks into it and just thought, oh, I’ve made such a bad mistake. This is such a bad fit. And then had to have that conversation of, I’m stepping away. I’m not the right person for you. you know, in a client situation, that decision could involve refunding some money, in an employee, in an employer employee situation, it could involve letting someone go who you’ve just hired, or it could be resigning after you’ve just accepted a role. And I know, you know, early in my career, I said yes to a job. And within about a week, I realized I’d made the wrong decision. And I didn’t say no, I didn’t resign. And I regretted not resigning really quickly for a long time because it was a job that just was, It had really negative impacts on many aspects of my life because I didn’t know how to say no. And I remember I called my mum, and my mum was like, oh, no, you can’t resign. You live in Sydney. It’s really expensive. You have no savings. What do you do? And I thought, just get a job at a department store to get some cat. And my dad was saying, if you really think it’s the wrong thing to do, then there is no shame in resigning. And he told me about how he was a teacher for a day, and at the end of that day, he realized that he did not want to ever teach children again. And so he quit.

Victoria: And I think, you know, this is really. I mean, I love the way you bring your own examples from your own career, from your clients as well. So, you know, this is something I’m sure that many people face, the big, hard things that we have to face up to, and we are sometimes trying to fit into other people’s expectations. You talked about your mum’s expectations there. Sometimes we feel like we should do something rather than we want to do it. How do we approach that conversation when we’ve made that decision? And no, we really can’t move forward with what we’ve been on the path that we’ve been following. What are your tips for approaching that type of conversation? Because that’s tough. That’s the thing people miss afraid of. Right?

Mel Kettle: Yeah. And big conversations can be really hard, and hard conversations are hard for a reason. So the advice that I give my clients when they have to have a difficult conversation, and it might be about, you know, resigning or firing somebody or giving really difficult piece of feedback to somebody, is, first of all, be really clear on what you’re wanting to say and make that conversation as factual as possible so that it’s not about the other person. make it more about you than about them. And before you actually go into that conversation, take a few deep breaths so that you can calm, your nervous system and get the blood flowing to the right places and just slow your heart rate a little bit. think about as well, how do you feel when you have difficult conversations, when you’re on the receiving end of it. And so try to go into the conversation with clarity and calm and a sense of compassion, particularly if it’s going to be a shock for the other person or typical the other person as well, and then just step through all of the things that you’re wanting to talk about in that conversation and why you need to talk about it. Again, being very factual based and not emotional about it, because the last thing you want is for the other person to think, that your feelings and emotions are negative towards them, and maybe they will be like, you know, I’ve certainly had conversations with people I’ve intensely disliked, and I’ve tried really hard to make sure that they didn’t know that because that’s unhealthy.

Victoria: So it sounds like it’s really about being very objective, very factual. You talked about preparing yourself physically. I like that idea. And that’s something I very much also talk about with my clients. Physical preparation is key. What happens in the moment. If the other person, however, does react emotionally. So there is no emotional reaction, whatever the context may be, even in a professional situation, it can happen. Right. Either there is anger or tears or sadness or frustration. What’s the best way to deal with that? Because obviously you can try to be objective and factual, but that might be not the reaction you’re getting back.

Mel Kettle: Yeah. In those situations, a lot of it depends on the timing of the conversation and what needs to happen afterwards. But if you can say, look, you’re clearly, upset about this or whatever the emotion the other person is, why don’t we take a break? Let’s just take a break for five minutes. Go and get a cup of tea, have a glass of water, go to the bathroom, wash your face, cry your eyes out, call a friend and do whatever you need to do. And then let’s continue this conversation either later today or tomorrow or however far down the track you need to have it? because I think that if the other person isn’t expecting that conversation, you do need to be prepared for the worst. Remember, one of my colleagues said to me once when he, had to give someone the bad news that they didn’t get a job that they’d been acting in for a long time. I said, how did they respond? And he said, she threw a chair at me.

Victoria: Wow. That’s extreme.

Mel Kettle: Not a response I would have expected.

Victoria: Right, of course.

Mel Kettle: But you do need to be prepared for extreme reactions.

Victoria: And would you suggest that you flag the kind of conversation you want to have? I mean, is it worth preparing the other person the kind of conversation that you’re going to end up having, or is it better to arrive, so that the other person doesn’t come with preconceptions and assumptions about what you’re about to say?

Mel Kettle: There’s really no, right answer for that, because it depends so much on the kind of conversation you’re having and the circumstances in which you’re having it. So, for example, if you’re having a conversation about, mass layoffs in your organization, then you probably can’t prepare people for that because you don’t want the word to get out in advance. but, you know, so much of it depends on who the other person or people are involved in the conversation and what it’s about. And are there legal reasons that you can’t prepare them in advance, or do you, want to temper their emotions so that they don’t have an opportunity to get really anxious about it? And then you can start the conversation and then give them time to come up with a response or a rebuttal, if that’s what’s required.

Victoria: Yeah. And that makes a lot of sense. Absolutely. So it’s really kind of case by case that’s really helpful, and I’m sure the listeners have taken a lot of helpful advice from that. I kind of want to move us into, a slightly related topic, which is you. I know you’re very passionate about this idea of to be a good leader of other people, you also need to lead yourself. And I can see your wonderful book in the background fully connected, which you very kindly shared a copy with me about this. Excellent. Thank you for sharing that. And obviously, we’ll put a link in the show notes. But I love this book, and I love this idea that we have to be connected to ourselves, that we have to be leading ourselves. But I’d love for you to share. What does that mean to you? What is self leadership in your view?

Mel Kettle: Look, I think as a leader, we lead three things. We lead ourselves first, and then we lead other people, and then we lead communities. And the community could be your organization, or it could be family, or it could be the broader community in which you live and work and play. If you don’t lead yourself first, then how on earth can you expect to lead others successfully? And leading yourself first, is things like, having a level of self awareness, knowing what are your values and your priorities, and what are your beliefs and what are the things that are really important to you? How do you, do you know, what motivates you? So, self motivation is the second thing. What drives you to succeed and what gets you out of bed in the morning, and things like what keeps you awake at night. So what are the things that, and what kind of person are you? How do you take action? What do you need to happen to take action to achieve your goals and your dreams? And then the third thing is self care. if you’re not self aware, you’re probably not very good at self care, because self awareness leads to better self care. For example, if you, so, for example, I had a spot on my leg about ten years ago. It was a freckle. I had it since I was a teenager. I noticed one day that it looked really different to how it had looked the previous week. And I went to the doctor. she didn’t think it was anything, but it turned out to be a melanoma. And if I didn’t have that awareness of my body, I wouldn’t have noticed the change, which means I wouldn’t have gone to the doctor, which means I’d probably be dead. And, so the more you can be aware of your body and your brain and your mind and what’s happening, then the more likely you are to notice when things go wrong and prioritize self care to look after them. Now, self care also, it’s not just your physical health, but your mental health. It’s also things like, do you have healthy boundaries? How do you allow people to speak to you? How do you spend your time? How do you, do you always work through lunch? What are your boundaries when it comes to things like work and people around you and your health, and how you spend your time and so many other different factors? and how do you, do you have them boundaries in place? And then how do you communicate them, and then how do you keep them?

Victoria: Wow, there’s so much in there I want to ask you about, because I think this is amazing. I think what I heard you say was almost, it starts with the self awareness, the understanding of yourself. But also, you talked interestingly about motivation, and I found that very fascinating because I also think that, people don’t spend enough time thinking about their motivations, but also how their motivations change over time as they change, as their circumstances change. Maybe family life changes if they have families. So I think that’s really, really fascinating. But this self care part, that’s a big one, right, in this current world, because I know from the clients that I work with, the people that I helped, these are busy people in huge jobs that are very, very demanding and actually find it very hard to look after self. Actually, they are almost the bottom of the list. So for people who are listening, who are nodding their heads, going, yep, that’s me. Find it really hard to switch off, find it working really all the hours right now. How do you even start when that feels so impossible?

Mel Kettle: I think the first thing is that I recommend to my clients is if you haven’t been to the doctors for more than a year and had some basic blood tests, had your blood pressure checked out, had a, you know, a once over to make sure that all of your bits are working properly, then do that. And, you know, woman and you haven’t had a mammogram for a while, or a pap smear, or if you haven’t been to the dentist or had your eyes checked, or if you’re a man and you haven’t had a prostate check and you’re of the relevant age, go and do that. Because there’s all these things that can be lurking in our bodies that are just little ticking time bombs, and it doesn’t take much to switch them on. So the more you can know that things are okay, then you can start focusing on things like, what are you eating? How much rest are you getting? Do you get seven to nine hours of sleep a night? How much exercise do you do? Do you move during the day? Or do you just sit down when you get to work and then not move until the end of the day? and then it’s things like, how much joy do you have in your life? Who are the people who you surround yourself with? Do they lift you up or do they beat you down? And then we’ve talked about boundaries, and then gratitude. That’s the final one. Do you. Are you grateful for things? Do you have a gratitude practice? And I don’t believe you need to have a particularly, specific gratitude practice. But do you have this sense of awareness that what you have is something that you should be appreciative of, or do you just take everything for granted?

Victoria: I love all those ideas. And I think starting with physical health, again, I can see many people nodding along, going, you know, it’s always the bottom of the to do list. It’s really difficult to make that time. But I think what you’re saying is we have to prioritize our health and actually we may be avoiding really big issues if we don’t confront them. I heard you talk about the joy. That’s an interesting idea, how to bring more joy in your life. And, I suppose with that, you know, again, people sort of have this idea that actually we have certain friendships that stick with us throughout our lifetime. But I sort of. I suppose people change, right? So there is something around. Is there something like a joy audit? Even, like, working out what actually brings you joy now may not be what it brought you. Joyous maybe five years ago or something. 

Mel Kettle: I like that, the joy audit. 

Victoria: Yeah, let’s do it. Let’s do a joy audit.

Mel Kettle: I think one of the things that, struck me during Covid I was chatting to a colleague in Melbourne who was in the longest lockdowns in the world, and she was really despondent. And then one day when I spoke to her, she wasn’t. And I said, what’s changed? She said, I realized that I needed to have something positive to look forward to every night and for the next day. So before I go to bed, I think about, what’s one thing I’m going to do tomorrow that’s going to give me joy and make me happy. And it could be something that takes five minutes or it could be something that takes longer. But she said, it’s the last thing I think about when I go to bed at night so that I have something to look forward to the next day. And so many of us can benefit from that. and I know when I’ve had really, the two things that give me the most joyous one is walking on the beach. And I do that. I try and do that every day. We moved to the beach, about three and a half years ago so that I could walk on the beach every day. And we went for a beach walk an hour ago before I jumped on the amazing, fabulous. I love that beautiful time of day. I’m coming back tomorrow, and I’m going to have a glass of wine at my favourite cafe over the road from the beach as well. And so that’s one of the things I love to do. And the other thing I love to do is read, and to read novels for pleasure. And so there’s been some days in the last few years that have been really, really hard, and I’ve gotten through them by thinking, at 08:00 I can go to bed with book and I can just read my book for however long I can stay awake for, an hour, an hour and a half, 20 minutes, whatever it might be, and just absorb myself in the story and forget about how hard this been today. Having those things to look forward to are so good for your, mental health and emotional health.

Victoria: I love that. I like this idea of putting the intention to create the joy. It’s not that this joy happens spontaneously, but you’re actually being very mindfully thinking about, where do I put my attention to make the moment of joy for you? And I like that idea very much.

Mel Kettle: I look at my week like, I look at my week and go, right, what day is this week? When can I go to the beach this week? And that’s something I do with my husband. I very rarely will go on my own because I like to go with him. And it’s a thing we do, and we have conversations that we would never have at home when we’re walking down the beach together. and he works shift work. And so I look at my calendar and go, right, I can do Pilates on Thursday morning because he’s working from 07:00am, so we won’t go to the beach on Thursday morning. And it just – I look forward to that. I look forward to that every week and every day. So find your thing. Find your little thing. And if you have to, put it in your diary, so you do it, then do that.

Victoria: Yeah, I think that’s great advice. Find your thing, whatever it might be. We may not have a beach nearby, wherever you’re listening, but you might be able to go to the park or get up early and do something that you love doing, whether it’s reading or the pilates or exercise or the run. And, I think the other thing I heard you talk about was gratitude. Now, I know some people are very familiar with this idea. What does it mean to have a gratitude practice? But could you just explain it in simple terms? What do you mean when you say creating gratitude, more gratitude in life, just to break it down into some simpler terms.

Mel Kettle: I personally have. I just show appreciation and think appreciation. So, you know, walking on the beach earlier today, I said to Sean, I can’t believe we get to do this whenever we want to. Like I this. I will never get tired of walking on the beach in the evening or in the morning and feeling the sand between my toes and the waves on my legs and just looking at the happy people. I live in a tourist town, so there’s always heaps of happy people at the beach. And I’m so ridiculously grateful that we made the big and hard decision to move and uproot our life and come here. And I just. I guess I want the universe to continue to know that so that it doesn’t get taken away from me. And, you know, that’s how one of the ways that I express gratitude. But there’s a lot of people who will write in a journal before they go to bed the three things that they’re grateful for, for the day and why they’re grateful for it. there’s so many different ways you can express it. And whether you express it verbally or whether it’s just something in the back of your mind, it’s really up to you, however you feel comfortable. But there’s so many people who have so little, who have gratitude, and there’s so many people who have so much who have this sense of entitlement. And the more we can get rid of that sense of entitlement and be really appreciative of what we’ve got, the better off we’ll be as a society.

Victoria: Fantastic. Thank you so much for being specific. And it sounds like it’s not that you have to journal or anything like that. It’s just literally an acknowledgement of what is good about your life. I just come back to a theme you mentioned earlier about healthy boundaries, because coming back into the workplace, thinking about communication and leadership, communicating those boundaries can be tricky. So even if we set out with good intention and say, right this week, I am definitely switching off from work at this time. I’m not available for calls at this time. This can be challenging for people, particularly who are working in very global teams where they might need to be on calls at kind of different times. Funny, times of the day, how do we communicate our boundaries effectively and really make sure that we try and stick to them as much as possible?

Mel Kettle: If you’re working for an organization that is scheduling meetings at times that you don’t want to have them, that is giving you more work than you have the capacity to do that is, encouraging you to start late, leave early, work through lunch, calling you on the weekends, not respecting your personal time. The first thing you need to do is have a conversation with your manager about it. And again, it’s one of those hard conversations that you need to prepare to go into. Write a few key points on a post it note and take them with you, but think about what is it that you want out of that conversation? And it might even be, I feel exhausted in the afternoon because I don’t get a lunch break. can we. I have all of these lunchtime meetings that are scheduled, and I don’t have time to eat because I’m in back to back meetings. Is there something that we can do so that I can have a break in the middle of the day? you know, think about what are the ways that, what is it that you want? And then how can you not just go to a manager with the problem, but maybe suggest a solution or two? the other thing, if you’re getting overloaded with work and projects, again, go to your manager. If you don’t have a regular one on one with your manager seat, that’s something that can be put into the schedule, and everybody should be having a regular one on one with their manager. and then think about, to have a conversation and say, as you know, I’ve got all these projects and all these workloads, and I’m really struggling to prioritize what’s most important. Can you help me work out what’s the most important? Because there aren’t enough hours in the day to do them all. And the not enough hours in the day could be a number of reasons. It could be because you don’t have, It could be because you’ve got too much work, or it could be because you don’t have the right skills to do the job and so you’re slower. Or it could be that, like any number of things, that you don’t have the tools you need to make it happen in the timeliness that it needs to happen. But the first thing is have that conversation.

Victoria: Yeah, I love that idea. It doesn’t matter how senior you are, there’s still the opportunity to ask for support or for. Ask for help.

Mel Kettle: But sometimes the way that that’s responded to. Sorry for interrupting.

Victoria: Yeah, no, go for it.

Mel Kettle: It will tell you how supported you really are going to be in that workplace, and that will help you make a decision around what do I do next? Do I stay or do I go?

Victoria: I think that’s a really interesting point, because sometimes people get to point, particularly if you’re, you know, more, somebody more senior in their career, where it can feel really hard to ask for support. It can feel very vulnerable to say, I can’t manage this all. Actually, this is way over my, you know, what is possible? How do we move through that fear of, like, being seen, of not being able to manage it, not being able to cope, particularly for those people who are more senior and thinking, I should be able to do this, but I can’t right now.

Mel Kettle: Talk to a friend first. Talk to somebody else in the organization who’s gone through it, or somebody in another organization. If you have a mentor, then talk to them about, how do I approach this conversation? Hard conversations are hard and scary. The reason they’re hard and scary, but don’t, not have it because you’re scared of what the consequence could be. The grass is not always greener on the other side, and it’s real. If you’re not getting the support you need, sometimes the best solution for you is to leave and to look for another job. I know. Do you have are you okay day in the UK?

Victoria: No. What’s that? Tell me more about that.

Mel Kettle: Ah, it’s a day that we have in Australia where you’re supposed to ask people if they’re okay and, support mental health. There’s a lot of companies that do things for are you okay day, such as have a morning tea with cupcakes. I have a friend who has cutting it. I’m stressed, I’m overworked, I’m getting way too much pressure to do my job, and you’re not supporting me. And so I’m resigning. And they both deliberately chose to resign on are you okay day. To show, you know, don’t just tell the whole world that we’re great because we support our staff. You actually need to support us.

Victoria: Love the idea of are you okay day, because I think the question a lot of people ask are, how are you? And, that how are you? Is such a bland question. It often gets a very bland answer. Fine, and you, it doesn’t get the real answer. So that idea of are you okay? I know there are various other days in other parts of the world to do with honoring mental health coming together, and this idea of also creating the space for a conversation. I’m quite curious because a lot of people who I be listening to this are working in very virtual environments where they’re not in the same space as their team. So let’s say they were, wanting to have a. Are you okay? Kind of day. That would be difficult to actually physically sit in the same space as the rest of the team, have a cupcake and talk about it. So does this translate virtually, do you think? Can you have those kinds of conversations in the virtual space?

Mel Kettle: Look, I think you can. My personal issue with are you ok day? Is that a lot of people think I just have to ask that question once a year. And by asking it and having a cupcake, I’ve ticked a box, and it doesn’t matter that I’m not very supportive of my people for the other 364 days of the year because I’ve given them a cupcake once.

Victoria: Yeah, I see what you mean. It’s not a ticking the box exercise, right?

Mel Kettle: No, it shouldn’t be. However, you, know, one of the things I talk about with a lot of my clients is the three qualities that set a really good leader, aside from, others, are how do you ask, questions? And what’s your curiosity? Like, how do you listen? Do you really listen to understand, or do you just listen while you’re waiting for your turn to talk? And what do you observe, and what do you observe about yourself, but also what do you observe about other people? And working virtually makes it so much more difficult to observe. It’s harder to ask questions and listen as well, because there’s distractions that are so much more readily available when you’re online. But the observation piece can be really tricky, particularly if you’re having meetings with people who have their cameras off. I know years ago, I worked in an office, and I had a woman, a, colleague in my organization, who was always really well put together, and then suddenly she wasn’t. And that was a really big red flag for her manager because she was always well spoken, polite, courteous, impeccably attired, really beautiful hair and makeup and clothing. And then over time, she just started to become a little bit, disheveled. And so that was an observation and a flag, so he could find out what was wrong, and there were things wrong, and he could help support her through those. It’s even more important, I think, when we are working online, that we do ask, questions and be curious about people and ask, questions to find out how is their work situation when they’re not in the office. Do they have a work environment that is conducive to actually getting the work done, whether it’s at home or whether it’s somewhere else? and then listening to what people are saying, but also listen to what they’re not saying. And so if someone is, always talking about their partner, and then suddenly they stop talking about their partner, why is that?

Victoria: That’s very powerful. Because it’s the silence, the absence of talking, that can sometimes indicate what’s the problem or what’s going on. And, I think the observation piece is interesting, as you say, so much more restricted when we sit in this kind of box. But I think, I mean, I get the sense you can do some level observation, but we have to, almost, as you, you talked about the importance of the one to one, but that’s that importance of creating the intentional space to actually even be able to see or hear what’s going on. Right?

Mel Kettle: Yeah, that’s right. And let’s not forget as well, there’s no point in, asking the questions and listening if you don’t have that level of underlying trust. Because if you don’t have that level of underlying trust with your people, they’re never going to tell you what’s wrong. And if you, doesn’t matter how good you are at observing and asking questions with compassion, they’re going to shut you down if they don’t believe they can trust you. And so, the first thing that we need to be doing as leaders is working out how do we earn the trust of the people who we’re working with.

Victoria: Yeah, I think that’s a very, very powerful thing.

Mel Kettle: I have no idea.

Victoria: No, I was going to say, I was going to say, what’s your tip? But I think that’s the point, isn’t it? It’s specific to the person and the context. Right. Like, how do you earn that trust? But I think it’s a really interesting. My son said it to me, actually did say it to me. He said it to somebody else the other day. He said, trust is not automatic, it’s earned. and I thought that was incredibly wise. He’s twelve years old, but he was quite angry. I was somebody at the time. but I thought it was really interesting that he said that because I think it’s true in leadership situations as well. Just because we have the title and the status doesn’t mean that everybody should automatically respect us or have that trust factor with us. Right.

Mel Kettle: But if you as the leader. I worked with a leader once who said to me, I trust everyone I hire. You have 100% of my trust and it’s yours to lose. So, of course I trusted that person far more than somebody who assumed I was always going to be doing the worst. And I see so often that, and I hear so many stories about people who are micromanaged or people who are always, who have. There’s an assumption that because they work from home, they’re not doing any work. You’re hiring these people for a reason, so why aren’t you trusting them to get on with their job and giving them the support they need and telling them that you’re there if they need you and checking in as often or as little as they want you to or need you to? But so often I feel that that trust is just not there. And so you can’t expect to be trusted if you’re not giving them a trust first.

Victoria: I think that’s highly, highly relevant and particularly in this current moment. I don’t know how it is in Australia, but certainly in UK, Europe. I know in the US probably they’re a bit ahead of this curve, but there’s a bit of a trend now around companies saying, right, everybody has to be back in the office now five days a week. This is what we expect, or we’re increasing the number of days we expect you to be present in the workplace. And it’s creating quite a lot of tension. Some people welcome it. Some people are really excited for this move. Some people are really resistant and actually see it as a real invasion of their privacy, of how they like to do things, their flexibility, when they’ve got other maybe carer responsibilities going on.

Mel Kettle: Yeah. And I think so much of it depends as well on what’s your work, what’s your home environment like? I’ve got colleagues and friends who live in one bedroom apartments with two or three people. And so working from home during COVID was really hard for all of them because there was no. And they were sharing the kitchen table. and then I’ve got people who lived in huge homes where everybody had an office that they could close the door. I’ve, got a friend in the Netherlands who worked out of the bedroom cupboard, the bedroom closet, because her husband was an executive at a bank and needed privacy. And so he got the office that she had been working out of for ages until we got there.

Victoria: I think that’s very wise, actually. It really does depend.

Mel Kettle: Right? Yeah. Ah. And so some people love working in the office. I’ve got another client who’s hugely extroverted and hates working from home because she’s lonely. She wants the people around her because they inspire her and they motivate her, and they just, their presence encourages her to work harder and to be happier. And so she doesn’t understand why people don’t want to work in this.

Victoria: Yeah. Oh, wow. There’s so much more we could talk about that, and I know it’s a very, very hot topic right now.

Mel, again, there are so many other topics I’d love to talk to you about. I’m really conscious of your time and you’re very generously sharing your insights. We have covered so much here. We’ve talked about weddings, the learnings of taking action, not taking action. We talked about, what it takes to be to lead yourself, self care. We covered so many different topics here and I really appreciate this conversation and I’m sure our listeners will be really taking a lot from this if people want to continue the conversation, find out more about what you do, follow you, where are the best places? Or what is the best way for people to find out more.

Mel Kettle: So, my website is probably the best starting point, melcattle.com. and I’ve got a couple of free resources that you might be interested in. One is a checklist on boundaries, healthy boundaries. And one is a checklist with ten steps to become more confident at communicating. They’re both on my website and then LinkedIn. If you just type my name, Mel Kettle, into LinkedIn, you’ll find me.

Victoria: Well, listen, we’ll put the links to those free resources. Thank you so much for generously sharing those. And I’ve been following, Mel on LinkedIn for a long time. That’s originally how we met. And I know your posts are fantastic, really insightful, really great wisdom that you share over there. So, definitely recommend go and follow. Go and connect with Mel. Amazing. Well, listen, Mel, thank you so much. Really appreciate the time, particularly as it’s late in your evening when we’re recording this. But, thank you for coming on the show. It’s been brilliant to have this conversation and, very much look forward to seeing everybody next time on Cultural Communication Confidence.

Mel Kettle: Thanks so much, Victoria. I’ve loved being part of your show. Bye.

Victoria: Thanks. Bye.