Emerging Leadership: Curiosity & Care with Anni Townend

Hi, everybody. And a very warm welcome to Cultural Communication Confidence with me, Victoria Rennoldson. And a very warm welcome to Anni Townend. Thank you so much for joining me here today, Anni. Thank you, Victoria. Thank you for inviting me to be a guest on your podcast. Well, it was an absolute pleasure and I’m really excited to have you on, because I know I got to know about you through LinkedIn, I’ve been following your own podcast for a little while, and I really love the topics that you cover, the guests you have on the show, and I just thought you would be a brilliant guest to have here as well. So thank you so much for coming on the show as well. Thank you.

So we’re going to start, with recording this right at the beginning of a new year, of 2025. And I know that you have been thinking about what your word for this year is, and that is ’emerging’. And I’m really curious about this word. It’s a word I’ve not heard others talk about. So what does that mean for you and, what does that mean for the work that you do? Thanks, Victoria. Well, it’s a very different word for me than the word I had last year, which was ‘adventure’. And in the same spirit, I am drawn to this word, emerging, as a way of thinking about things and approaching things. So it’s as much to do with my mindset, as it is in terms of how I show up, my behaviour. So what it’s encouraging me to do is to take time, to make space, and to probably be allowing, of what is emerging, in a conversation, in the teamwork, and noticing it, paying attention to it, but allowing it to emerge. And I think that you’ve mentioned the fact that we’re recording in January 2025, and I live on the south coast in East Sussex. And over the December festive period of last year, every day was very, very foggy. There was a thick fog, which moved over the South Downs, but never moved very far. And I love walking, I love getting outside. I love being in nature. And what I noticed is the movement of the fog and that, I was seeing more things and more things were emerging. Different things each day, which I might not have noticed had it been a blue sky sunshine day where, when the clouds are fast moving, different things are highlighted. So a closer attention to what was emerging and seeing things in a different way.

I love that. And I love the way that it kind of forced you to slow down, notice different things, and to see things from a completely different angle. And, it sounds like it’s kind of giving you some inspiration about what, you know, what you’re working on and what you’re focusing on this year as well, right? I think it has, Victoria. I think it’s that thing of making time and, making space for things to reveal themselves, rather than being in control of things, accepting what is and responding to things, probably in a more thoughtful way. I think that makes a lot of sense. And I’m kind of really interested how this might also apply to some of the leaders that you work with, because I can imagine for some of the people that might be listening to this, they’re thinking, well, everything is go, go, go from the start of January, from the start of new year. So I’m really interested, how are you applying this in your own work with leaders as well?

Very much so. It is a question that I ask leaders and their teams. And I work with executive teams and with individual senior leaders. And during January in my work, I have been asking people, what is your word? A word that helps guide you, helps you get in touch with what you care about. The new year, calendar year, being an opportunity to reflect on what really matters to us, and what we’re leading for, but not necessarily setting big goals and ambitions during January, but allowing things to emerge by paying attention to them. And so I’ve been encouraging leaders to do just that, to have open and honest conversations and to bring the mindset and behaviours which are very much part of my work with Lucy Kidd, with whom I co-founded Collaboration Equation, we are very passionate about supporting and encouraging leaders to bring the mindset and behaviours of curiosity, care and courage, and bringing those helps leaders to allow for things to emerge, and pay attention and to act upon them. I love the idea of the Collaboration Equation, and I definitely want to know more about this. But before we do, I’m really kind of interested because the pace of work seems ever accelerating. And so, actually it sounds like what you’re encouraging, executive teams, executive leaders to do, is to really take that moment and pause, to really consider. Is there ever resistance to that, or is it very welcome? This idea of, oh, I can take that moment, that space, to really, as a team, work out what we need to focus on here, what we need to think about as a team to be successful.

I think that’s it, Victoria, is that helping leaders and their teams to do their best thinking together. I’m really keen on supporting leaders to do that. I believe that together we can be more creative, more innovative, more imaginative, and make better decisions. In order to do that, appreciating that people think and learn and talk in very different ways. So how can we create an environment in which people can think, do their own thinking, but do their best thinking together? So creating what Nancy Klein calls a ‘thinking environment’. But how do we create the conditions in which people can do their best thinking? So giving people time to pause, and it is a moment sometimes, to arrive in a teams meeting in a room with other people, giving people time to refresh. Whatever it is that we are going to be reading, if it’s a paper that we’re being asked to comment on or some other piece of work that we’re being asked to give our thoughts to, then giving people time to catch up with themselves, to read it, to be able to do their best thinking so that we together can do our best thinking. So it, I think it is about taking moments, making moments to think, to pause, in order to go faster, to do together. So it’s a very intentional pause, creation, which I, you know, I love that idea. Now, I do want to ask you about the Collaboration Equation. And I think you said it was curiosity, care, and courage. Did I get that right? Yes. Right. So why those three, have you identified as being core to this idea of collaboration?

We have, Lucy and I, whittled them down from there being seven C’s. And the fact that you have remembered the three, curiosity, care and courage, is really very reassuring, Victoria, because when we had seven, I couldn’t remember what the seven were. So we gave a lot of thought and testing out of what were the three critical mindset and accompanying behaviours to finding your collaborative edge, that underpin each of the pillars of our collaboration equation. And the first pillar being that of psychological safety. And that came about through our shared passion in our individual work, for creating a safe environment. I think we were ahead of the curve in knowing that to get the best out of people and to deliver more for our customers, for the people that we’re in business with, or doing business for, that creating a safe environment, in which everybody can contribute and do their best work, really matters. And how do you do that? And you do that through bringing the mindset and behaviours of curiosity, care and courage. So it’s a very simple lens with which to think about psychological safety and being curious in the way that you are, Victoria. Asking me questions, caring, you know, you set up our conversation. We both care about conversation and the courage that it takes to be in conversation, not knowing exactly where it’s going to go, and having the courage to be able to be vulnerable as well as to be really clear in setting direction, but also of course taking people with us at the same time.

Yeah. And I really, you know, I can absolutely resonate with each of those very, very deeply. And I think curiosity probably is a theme I’ve seen across time, across leadership. Care is something that I think has become more important over time. I get the sense that demonstrating outward, symbols of care, showing demonstrably care is so critical these days as a leader. I think so. And I think the three things – I’m glad you’ve picked up on that one, because I think often curiosity and courage come before the care. But actually with the care, and more and more we are needing to not only care for ourselves, but care for each other, and how we demonstrate that care and have enough care to be open and honest with each other. And you and I are both very passionate about helping people to have conversations, to enjoy open and honest conversation. And I think that’s absolutely what motivates me is to help people to feel confident, to have those open and honest conversations, and to do that with care for the other person. So it’s not simply about me being open and honest about something, it’s about me being considerate of my impact, caring about my impact on you, on listeners, on the people that, that I work with, whoever I’m with actually, that I bring that same level of curiosity, care and courage and the three very much working together.

And I’m just, you know, really interested. If I’m thinking about some people who are going to be listening to this, they’re often in sort of global teams where they’re co-located across many different places. And so, you know, is care – how does care work in a virtual world? How can leaders be demonstrating care when actually maybe they’re not seeing some of their team day to day, if at all that frequently. I’m really interested to get your perspective on this. How we care for each other from afar? That’s it. From a distance. Yeah, from a distance. I think that speaks to caring for each other when we’re not in the room together, when we’re not on the screen, but thinking and leading for the whole, for the bigger picture. So collaboration is about caring, for other people, not just caring for ourselves. So in terms of caring, it is how we represent each other, how we talk about each other, how we commit to each other’s success, even when we’re not together, when nobody is looking. Often I will talk to and talk with teams about the importance of: it’s who we are when we’re not together. Because we are, for many of us, working globally and taking care, being considerate of other people’s environment, certainly helps me if I’m able on a call to be able to see people. It’s not always possible, but it is a a way of showing that we care, if only for a moment. Having our camera on, to be able to say hello if we’re not able to necessarily have it on all the time. Being present for each other, really listening, and then of course asking a question, demonstrates that we care and we’re bringing curiosity, and also in sharing something about ourselves we bring that, that courage, and encouraging of others. So again, the three very much work together, and I think more and more people are thinking about care, about wellness, about wellbeing and the importance of taking care of each other.

Yeah, I love that. I absolutely love that angle. And I think, you know, something you’ve just talked about for me also resonates with this idea of pairing in hybrid environments, where you have some people visible in the room, it’s so much easier to focus on people who are close to you, in proximity to you. Then it’s actually much easier to forget the periphery of what’s going on. Maybe people are joining virtually, but they are still part of the meeting, they’re still part of the team. Very much so. And I think that speaks to the next pillar in our Collaboration Equation, which is that of inclusive dialogue, ensuring – and it sits with psychological safety – ensuring that everybody has a voice. I encourage people to speak from the ‘I’, so they share their own experience, and in conversation addressing ‘you’. I’m talking with you now, that I speak to you directly. So that when we talk about the ‘we’, we’re speaking very powerfully about: this is what we think, this is what we’ve agreed, this is what we’re committed to action. And being very mindful of inclusive dialogue. So making sure that we’re giving everybody an opportunity to have a voice on the screen or in the room. Absolutely. Sorry to cut across you there but yeah, I absolutely agree and I think, you know, I remember when we first spoke, this idea of the inclusive dialogue was, you know, very much in line with my thinking as well. And the work that I do in cultural intelligence, thinking about also not only creating an opportunity for voice and for people to talk, but also this idea of thinking about, actually culturally, people have different ways of showing up, of contributing of what feels, the right way to kind of be in the meeting as a leader or part of contributing as part of that meeting. And I remember thinking, actually, that is very much in line with your thoughts as well, I think, on inclusive dialogue.

I think so, because it’s about being in that meeting and showing up for each other. So even though it may not be an area of discussion that I am especially interested in, how important it is to engage in that discussion, to get more cultural intelligence about what is going on in the rest of the organisation or globally, the context in which I’m leading, that we’re leading together, even though I’m over here and you’re there, so actually paying even more attention and listening and asking questions and caring about what is being shared when it isn’t my subject area or my bit of the business. And I think that then speaks to the third pillar of our Collaboration Equation, which is diversity of thought and feeling. And that’s where we started really, is that we were, Lucy and I, invited by a client, a global client, to help them create a safe environment in which people could speak openly. There’d been some feedback that people didn’t feel safe to express diverse opinions and thoughts. And through our work, bringing curiosity, care and courage, we realised that it was also about enabling people to share not only different thinking but also different feeling, and there being space for that, that very often people will feel differently. And of course, it’s so true that we remember how we feel about something, often more than what we think about something. So creating that space for the diversity of thought and feeling, and really listening and caring and being curious, and having the courage to say: ‘tell me more’ and/or ‘I see that very differently’. ‘I had no idea that you felt like that, this is really helpful’. So those kind of conversations, which I know are so important to you, Victoria, as well. Absolutely. And I think, you know, I think you are absolutely bang on, like, this idea of people remember feelings. Actually, that is what is the primary takeout I think sometimes people have like, how you feel out of a meeting, but also how others experience you, and how they kind of – the energy they got from you.

And, something that I know you mentioned to me was about this idea of the energy of words. Yes, I’m really – I mean, I have a particular interpretation of that, but I’m quite interested to hear what, how you see that the energy of words. Well, this is definitely an emerging thought for me, that you’ve touched upon, and in part speaks to something that I’m learning, which is to take photographs and express myself through taking photographs and creating images, which I’m really enjoying doing. And of course, speaks to one of the practices of leadership around noticing and being aware. So I am definitely a noticer. And I may go out because it’s a beautiful day, and want to take photographs of this or that. But then something else catches my attention. and I came across a book by Kim Grant, about the language of photography, in which she speaks very powerfully about words having energy. And I’m very fortunate to have become a relatively new grandmother. Congratulations! Thank you. What I notice about my young grandson as he learns words, which complements what Kim Grant is talking about in her book about photography, is that the words have an energy. How he is learning the words, speaking the words. Words have an energy, they have an impact. And paying attention to the language that we use, I think is so important, our own language, but also making it inclusive and being very considerate of others in our choice of words.

That’s so interesting. That’s how you, you came to this idea. And I love the – for me, this idea of language is also very powerful because it impacts others, but it also impacts ourselves, right? In the way that we’re experiencing the situation. And one of the things that I’m also really, I like to sort of play with sometimes and help others understand, is that energy is also what’s coming from your voice, and what the energy you’re putting into situations, context, through your verbal, communication, not just the words themselves. And we can be quite intentional in that energy, of how we put that energy up, down, the style that we’re putting into it as well. I think so, because of the stories that we tell as leaders matter, and how we tell them. We have a choice about how we tell a story, where we put our attention. And I think as leaders, we engage people through our stories, and making those stories inclusive, whilst absolutely honouring of that diversity and celebrating that difference, respecting it, honouring it, enjoying it. And that then taking us to collaboration, to finding our collaborative edge, where innovation and creativity happen through, and we very consciously chose collaborative edge, again with reference to nature and to permaculture, that growth and biodiversity happens at the edges. There’s so much happens at the edges of things, and that that’s where often learning takes place. It is not always an easy place to be, but it, but it’s where there is a lot going on. And so collaborative edge. And of course, it’s also a bit of a spin on finding, you know, we need to get our competitive edge. We’re talking here about our collaborative edge. Finding that creative spark through feeling safe, through being inclusive, through encouraging diversity of thought and feeling, and then finding our collaborative edge, and really doing our best work together and delivering success.

Exciting, I can imagine. No, I mean, it really genuinely does. I mean, and I think, you know, it must be a brilliant work to be doing, working with the team over a long period of time to help them find that edge that is going to help them accelerate themselves as individuals, as teams. But also genuinely, what I hear you saying is business performance. It has a big impact on results as well. Most definitely. Yeah. I think I’m often – sorry, Victoria – a lot of people talk about collaboration, but really getting underneath it and understanding what it is and how it’s different from cooperation, coordination, from competition, and where there may be a place for some of the other things like coordination, cooperation, competition – but how we can maximize our effort through collaboration, through working together, through bringing curiosity, care and courage. What were you going to say?

Well, I was going to ask you, because I think you have quite a unique position and unique insights into a number of different teams and workplaces, and so I’m just really interested in this idea of what you see emerging in the workplace in the future. So obviously there is much more resonance right now with this idea of the care, the curiosity, the courage. But where is the workplace generally going? What do you see coming up, as we move forward through this year and perhaps beyond? Well, I guess the big one and the one I’m stepping into is generative AI and how we can collaborate with each other, use it, for best results. I think there are a lot of unknowns out there, and that leadership is very much about getting comfortable with not knowing, but that the more we can help each other to understand how we can use technology, how we can collaborate with technology, that certainly is exciting me and having me want to know more. And, I’m going to be participating, attending an event later this week, the week in which we’re recording, around five key global trends. So I’m really curious about, you know, what these five trends are. And, I’ll let you know – yes, I’d love to make a link to the document, for other people who are interested.

Well, thank you. I’m sure that would be really interesting. But I think your point about AI is a really good point, because it takes courage as well, as leaders in emerging new worlds to say, well, we don’t know, actually we don’t know the best ways to use this, or we don’t know the best ways to implement this in our business, and to really let it help us. And I think that’s also quite an important step actually, as a leader to say ‘I don’t know’. Exactly. And that takes courage, because there is a myth around leadership that as leaders we need to know, but actually I think the more senior we are as leaders, the less we know and the more it is about asking questions that help people fine tune their thinking, expand their thinking, focus their thinking, and together ask more questions which lead to solutions and ways forward, new ways forward, new ways of thinking, of meeting each other and meeting the challenges that we have globally, as we you know, emerge even more into 2025. Indeed. I’m going to sort of wrap up by asking you, what is sort of one thing that you’ve learned recently? And recently you can self define, but there’s something that you’ve learned that’s maybe changed your point of view on leadership or communication?

Whilst I think about that, Victoria, can I ask you a question? Of course you can, yes. Have you got a word for 2025? Do you know that’s very, very interesting. I have a number of words that I resonate with, but there is a phrase that I’m using a lot at the moment, which is not my own, but I’ve, it’s inspired me which is about ‘raising my gaze’. So the idea of – even as leaders, it’s very, very easy to keep looking down, to keep looking in the short term, to think about what’s coming up next, but to have the discipline to go, keep looking up, not only to think about what’s coming up, but actually to just appreciate, as I think, you know, we were sort of talking about right at the beginning of this episode, appreciate things differently. To see, actually there is other stuff going on. It’s not just about what’s happening in this zone right in front of me. And that is a phrase I’m keeping at the top of my mind. Just remind me to look up, look up and see and appreciate and think about that longer term all the time. No matter what’s in that short term pressure point right now.

I love that, Victoria, I’m going to add that – raise your gaze. I love that. I think it’s so important, and one of the things that I do encourage leaders to do and their teams, is to get outside whenever possible, if it’s to sit side by side and, or to walk side by side. And as part of that, encouraging people to notice what’s going around them and to remember to look up, so that raising your gaze and remembering to look up in the everyday, no matter whatever you’re doing, is so, so important. Yeah, I think it’s, you know, for me, I live in London, I’m in a fairly urban setting. But actually even walking outside in the short walk, say to and from my daughter’s school, I still see a lot of green, I still see a lot of nature. And again, that is for me, my little piece of nature, my piece of raising my gaze, to receive that and appreciate that and help that inspire my day, refresh me, help me feel the energy that I need during my day as well. Wonderful, wonderful. I hope you get to do that today. Thank you.

In answer to your question, one of the questions that I like to ask leaders, and I’m very, I’m very good at asking questions, through listening and then asking a question. But one of the questions that I ask is: what gives you joy? And where can you, integrate more of what gives you joy into your day to day? So, almost going back to the beginning of our conversation, we are very busy, you know, we live in and work in a busy world, many of us, and we don’t take enough time to think, to stop, to pause. And we don’t have huge amounts of time to do the self care or to care for others. So, something which I think is really important, especially this time of year in the northern hemisphere, when it is dark, or albeit it’s getting lighter each day for a bit longer, is to notice what gives you joy, and to incorporate it into your day, if only for a few minutes. So find what gives you joy, ask other people what gives them joy, that will give them energy, it will help them focus, and it will encourage people to do their best thinking, and their best work together, and to find a collaborative edge. Love it. Well, that’s a very, very beautiful end to this, episode. And Anni thank you so much for answering my many questions and allowing the conversation to flow in many different directions. I have found this really fascinating, this conversation, and if our listeners are interested to know more about your work with, collaborative edge, or with your work with confidence with executive teams and leaders, how is the best way for them to be in touch to know more about what it is that you do?

There’s my website, AnniTownend.com and that’s Anni without an E and Townend without an S. AnnieTownend.com, and on my website, you’ll also find my podcast, Leaders in Conversation with Anni Townend. And I’m looking forward to you being a guest on my podcast in the autumn, Victoria! And, Collaboration Equation, we have our own website, CollaborationEquation.com. We’re on LinkedIn, Collaboration Equation. And I’m on LinkedIn, Anni Townend, and we are soon launching our, Collaboration Equation podcast, its own feed. So lots of sharing. Love to be in conversation with people. So delighted for people to reach out and to contact me for a conversation. Brilliant. Excellent. Well, Anni we’ll include all those links in the show notes, so people can certainly be in touch. Really excited to hear about your new podcast launch, looking forward to listening to this as well, but Anni very much, thanks to you. This has been a really great conversation, I very much enjoyed chatting to you. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you for having me. Thank you, Victoria. See everyone next time.