Accessible & inclusive workplaces: transforming communication with Daphne Mavroudi-Chocholi

Hi, everybody. And a very warm welcome to Cultural Communication Confidence with me, Victoria Rennoldson. And I’m really, really excited to have Daphne join me on the show. Very warm welcome. Daphne, how are you today? Thanks for having me. Really good, thank you. It’s a cold day in London, but really good. It is, it is. And I’m really excited to have you on the show because when we first met and I learned about what you’re doing at RNIB, I thought there was something really important for us to talk about on the show, about accessibility in communication and in the workplace and in meetings today. But let’s kind of roll back and perhaps just start with a bit of an explanation of who are the RNIB? What is the mission for your organisation?

Fantastic. Thank you. Well, RNIB, so the Royal National Institute of Blind People is, a UK charity founded 1868. So we’ve been around for a while, and we serve people living with visual impairments. We are very much focused on building a country, a perfect country for people who are, suffering or have been impacted by sight loss. Their loved ones, their families, their friends, and that is our mission. Fantastic. And I want to kind of talk about why does this matter from an accessibility point of view? Because this is something I’m really interested in, like, what is it that is important for us to understand about this?

So there’s two strands to an answer here. Let’s start with the very real human side to this in that, sight loss can sadly affect anybody and everybody. You might either be born with an impairment that manifests itself on day one, or it might take a while and your vision might deteriorate over a prolonged period of time. maybe you have a stroke, you survive the stroke, but you wake up with an impairment, or you live until you are 90, 100 and slowly your vision deteriorates. So it really sadly is something that can affect anybody. The other key thing to know about sight loss, and it’s not something that I was aware of before I joined RNIB. I’ve been RNIB for about 14, 15 months now, is that, of those registered with a visual impairment, those that are registered blind or visually impaired are only 7% of those individuals exist in complete darkness. The majority of individuals who might be registered blind will still have some degree of working vision. And we have developed a series of tools and apps, most recently our Eyeware app that enables somebody with, full, complete vision to experience life with macular degeneration, with acute cataracts, so that we can all get a perspective of what that looks like. The other key thing to note is that when we think about a world that works for individuals who are visually impaired at any degree of, if you like, visual impairment, ultimately we’re thinking of a world and we’re designing a world that works better for everybody. A series of us might struggle with blockages in the street either because of bins or A frames on the high street. And that might be because we’re using a cane or a guide dog. Maybe we’re in a wheelchair, maybe we’re pushing a pram. Maybe we did some kind of extreme sport on the weekend and you know, broke a leg, God forbid, or sprained an ankle and now we’re in crutches. So designing a world with inclusion at the centre benefits all of us, not the individuals who maybe we started designing the world, making the world accessible for in the first place. So that’s one bit of why this is important. The other bit, and it’s becoming more and more prominent in the business world now. And there’s a whole host of different research that supports this is, is a pretty long list of benefits to businesses when they embrace inclusion, diversity and equity. And that could be enhanced innovation because those diverse perspectives really will drive creativity. I met somebody the other day who was telling me that, you know what Daphne, by the time it gets to 9 o’clock and I’m at my desk and on a call to you, I have probably solved more problems and more challenges in my day to day that you might have to do over the course of your day, because of my impairment, right. And that is that kind of ‘out of the box’ thinking, and broader range of experiences really help businesses. We know from research from McKinsey and Harvard that it also drives improved financial performance that companies that embrace inclusivity and, and bring different perspectives and different cultures really outperform their peers. And also ultimately it’s, it’s about talent. It’s about talent attraction and talent retention in a very competitive talent marketplace. Bringing and building a culture of diversity and inclusion is critical to the success of the business. So there’s two aspects to this. One very, very personal and then the other one more around the organisations that we are working with and for.

Wow. Definitely there’s so much in there and I want to talk about so much of it, because I think there’s a couple of things that really already sort of challenge my perspectives on things as well. Because, you know, what you’re saying there is, it’s not about just people who are living in total darkness. Actually, there’s a real range of different visual impairments and vision loss that goes on, that challenges people. And I really love the idea as well that this is a really important part and core part of inclusivity, that is not just about impacting people with vision loss, but others who have other challenges going on. And, very specifically, you mentioned the Eyeware app. Now, I’ve tried this out and I found this an amazing experience, I have to say. It really challenged what I thought I kind of see in my kind of world and moving around inside and outside. And I found it a very, useful experience. Could you just describe a little bit what this Eyeware app is and, what you kind of go through as you kind of go through the app itself?

Yeah. So one of the -and, and this is pertinent to the communication, a broader communication conversation, right – so it’s one of the things that is very hard in this space is bringing the personal experience and the emotional connection, to the problem, to somebody who has a couple of minutes who is really stretched and is looking to really understand, why should I care about this ultimately? And so the Eyeware app was developed as a way for us to bring to life an immersive experience, to, those who have vision, so that we can, when we talk about how do we design advertising, how do we build buildings that are accessible, how do we develop, experiences that are inclusive to all, we can bring that learning to the fore. So the Eyeware app was developed, with funding from the People’s Postcode Lottery and with partners in the technology space, most, predominantly Zap vision. And that allows us to, it’s a free app that you can download on your phone. And we have developed, we have modeled the eight most prominent eye conditions in the UK. So I mentioned some earlier, Macular degeneration, retinitis, pigmentosis, cataracts, etcetera, and varying degrees of that. The fascinating thing with Eyeware is that it also works with a Google Cardboard, which, just as it says on the tin, it’s a cardboard box that you can slide your phone into and then strap, with, a piece of elastic around your head so that you can get a real immersive experience into the world of a visual impairment. The challenge, a lot of the times we use filters, so a lot of the times what is quite easy to do is either put a filter on a video like the one that our viewers on YouTube might be watching, or put a filter, put glasses on, spec glasses, sim spec, glasses on, and experience this interaction with that, in mind. But for somebody who’s sighted, I still can use my peripheral vision, so it’s not as immersive as a cardboard sort of VR, experience would be. And so that’s the Eyeware app, it really allows us to bring to life, the world of the people that we’re here to serve, generate awareness, knowledge, and a deeper emotional understanding as to why this is important. And also myth bust a little bit. This perspective that a lot of us had. I know I had it when I, when I walked into RNIB, for the first time, that when somebody is blind, it means that they, can’t see anything and they definitely need, a cane or a guide dog. That is not true.

Yeah, I think that’s where the app really kind of blew me away actually, as an experience because I was like, I had no idea, actually. I had no idea about the range of different, sight impairments, the sites, I suppose what can happen, but also the impact, literally even in a minute or a couple of minutes of experience, how frightening that can feel when you’re kind of not able to really understand and sense the world truly in the way that you’re. You’re used to. Exactly. Highly recommend that. I’ll put certainly a link to that show notes in the show notes so people can have a look at that and try that out. But now let’s bring it to the workplace and thinking about it from the workplace perspective, because I’m sure one of the questions that, people listening to this might have is, well, you know, how do I then ensure that in the workplace we are more inclusive? What does that look like? And even sort of what suggestions practically do I need to think about perhaps as a team leader?

Oh, that is a big question. I can imagine. Yes, I can imagine. Well, that is a very big question, let’s focus on some simple steps and I will kind of reiterate again what I said earlier with the example of the bins or the A frames on, the street, which is that by designing for blind and partially sighted people, we build a world that is better for everybody. Right. So when it comes to the workplace, there are, a couple of practical first steps. That I would encourage everybody to consider one is that the abundance of technology that allows a blind or partially sighted employee to join the team and deliver and support the organisation in everything in the organization’s ambitions and strategy. So that could vary from a be my eyes headset, it could be JAWS technology screen readers, zoom text, a bigger screen. There’s a whole host of different assistive technologies out there, that could that would support an employer and an employee to find the right support to ensure that that individual is able to thrive in the workplace. So at RNIB we do a lot of work in supporting employers all the way through from recruitment to onboarding to then very importantly supporting the employers and the employees so that there is a thriving career ahead of ahead of every individual who joins an organisation. So in terms of first practical step and piece of advice would be as you saw in the Eyeware app, no experience or no of a site impairment is the same. And like everybody else, blind and partially sighted people have their will have a preference as to the specific technology, whether they read Braille, whether they not read Braille, that they want to be using. So the first and foremost is to ask and ask from a place of curiosity and desire to help in a, as my grandmother used to say, “there’s a reason why we have two ears and one mouth”. So ask the question then sit back and absorb everything that the individual is, is sharing with you and work collaboratively together to find the, the right solutions and support that work for the individual. That is the first and foremost things that I would, that I would ask and suggest for. The other thing is – can I just jump on there? Because actually one of the things that I can imagine sometimes people feel is ‘I’m scared about getting it wrong’ or I’m scared about asking the wrong question or offending someone. But I love your way of thinking about this which is come from a place of curiosity that you don’t know actually. And that person is individual rights.

You will get it wrong. I get it wrong. I called a meeting yesterday with two colleagues who are blind and I was late. And so when I joined the meeting they were having a conversation. and then I announced myself and then before we got onto the meeting I had to say can I just check when I join the Teams meeting, what happens on your end? Is there a notification? Does your technology alert you that somebody has joined? Because as a sighted individual I rely on seeing the window. The third window pop up and knowing that somebody else has joined and what would be appropriate for me to do in this space. And again, very kindly, they reminded me of the technologies that they’re using. They reminded me that it’s, you know, they want to be involved and they want to be able to share their experiences so that together we build something better for everybody. So, yes, there’s always questions, and it is likely and probable that you will. That one will get it wrong. But if you approach it from a place of, I’m here to understand and I’m here to listen and figure out a way where this works for everybody, then that is really, really welcome. In my experience at RNBI, just ask from a place of genuine compassion and wanting to understand, not from a place of criticism or, instruction or anything like that. Just genuinely ask the question, how does this work?

Fantastic. That’s really, really helpful. Thank you for just kind of clarifying on that. So the step one is really that curiosity, mindset to ask questions about what they’re actually experiencing and what would help. Okay, yeah. The other thing, in the workplace, a lot of our work, much like this meeting, is done on, excuse me, is virtual, is done on Zoom or on Teams or, GoogleMeet or whatever it might be. So, there’s a handful of tips and tricks, if you like, in terms of making an online meeting accessible. And again, what I’m going to share started from the perspective of how do we make it, how do we ensure that the meeting is accessible to blind and partially sighted people? My experience so far has been that it actually nurtures and supports a whole host of other, impairments and disabilities. And I have found it a much better way of working. So when it comes to online meetings, one of the things that we advise is that documents are shared in advance. as far as documents can be shared in advance, that allows somebody who is using, a screen reader to actually read the documents beforehand. Because you can’t have a meeting that is running and your technology talking to you at the same time. but it also allows somebody like me who responds better on written information to absorb that information, think about the context, and almost kind of plan ahead as to what would I want to say, what are the elephant traps, perhaps, that I want to be very careful around. If I have a much more contentious, point to raise, how do I do that? Rather than being, sort of surprised in a meeting, which might not work, well for everybody. So that’s one using documents in advance. If you’re not able to use Document to share documents in advance or you’re presenting a set of slides, talk to the slides. Assume nobody has read them and that nobody’s reading your presentation. Which again I was listening to one of your previous episodes where we’re talking about the information overloads and the fact that when we are presenting when we are presenting information, keeping it short, keeping it succinct and to the point is very important and again that is good practice. So document shared in advance and if you can’t talk to the slides, describe any images, describe any graphs, et cetera, it helps and supports not just blind and partially sighted people but potentially individuals who have other impairments. a couple of other things is we don’t use, and we advise everybody not to use the chat function when we’re in a meeting. Again because then if you’re using a screen reader, the screen reader will be reading the chat whilst the meeting is going on. And again if you forget about whether somebody in the team or on that call is blind or visually impaired, if you’re having a conversation like this one and in the sidebar the chat is blowing up with comments and questions and people having a completely separate conversation, that’s not an effective meeting. Half of your participants are engaging in a different conversation.

We also advise that you use mute microphones to just eliminate interference and ensure that the audio is crisp and clear. Raise hands when you want to say something and when you want to participate. Again this allows for the, for an orderly interaction on the call and in fact I have I have had, I have been on calls that we haven’t shared in the last couple of weeks when we haven’t sort of followed that etiquette and it feels strange. I enjoy much more the orderly fashion of going to. I’m going to raise my hand. I have a point to make and I’m going to wait for my turn. It will say if I’m third, fourth, first, etc. We also advise to introduce yourself when you’re in an online meeting, every time you speak or as much as possible. I was hosting our all hands meeting yesterday and I had the MC role asking different members of the exec team questions as they were coming in. In that scenario it is in, in the interest of time and the focus of the meeting. It’s not appropriate for me every time to introduce myself. but in a meeting where I might speak once or twice. Especially with people that don’t talk to me every day, it’s important to remind them that this is the sound of my voice and this is who is talking. And last but not least, and I was really encouraged when, before we got onto this, you were talking about the way in which the podcast goes live. It’s important to record and transcribe the meeting. And thankfully now that can happen in the click of a button. So it’s really not hard. But it helps anybody who missed the meeting. It helps anybody who was in the meeting but might have gotten distracted. Like me, I have two young kids. Sometimes my memory is not up to scratch, depending on how I’ve slept there the night before. And it’s very helpful to be able to go back and listen to the meeting again or read the notes and remind myself of the decisions that we’ve made and ultimately it also helps blind and partially sighted people.

And the last thing I would say is, if you’re going to have an online meeting where you’re inviting people to ask questions, again, from the perspective of inclusion, and accessibility, sometimes it’s good to give people the option to ask a question anonymously. Not everybody is. Sometimes somebody might want to ask a hard question and not want to have their name associated with that. But also a lot of people might not want to raise their hand in a public forum to ask even a simple question. So offering that option, assuming that it is appropriate for the meeting that you’re hosting, that is very important in terms of getting a much better interaction from the individuals who are participating. Apologies… I’m going to dive in, but no, definitely thank you so much because I like. I’ve been nodding away vigorously, for those of you watching the video version of this, but I just, you know, this is so powerful because what strikes me and is so utterly true is that this is good for inclusion. Clearly, for very specifically you’re taking the angle of, you know, what, what would be helpful, what would be inclusive for people who are, you know, blind or have eye conditions, which means that they do need to be, really considered carefully about how to be part of this meeting. But this is also amazing way to make sure everybody is included. And in fact, I think there are some principles here that I know are important for people who are perhaps speakers of different languages who have different challenges, who, you talked about, you know, the reluctance maybe to put up your hand in Public and share an opinion or even ask a question, know that can be culturally driven as well, that somebody doesn’t feel very comfortable in a hierarchical situation to kind of expose themselves in that way. So it’s really. I, you know, I’ve loved these, these very, very practical ways that you have, shared here. And there’s one particularly that I’m really like, interested in, which I want to pick up on, which is the chat, which happens in teams or in Zoom or whatever platform people are using. Because interestingly, there is sometimes a lot of noise going on in the background of meetings, right?

Yes, yeah, absolutely, there’s a lot of noise. And, I was actually reflecting with a colleague on this, the other day that eliminating all of those distractions and introducing some order in the meetings makes for much better conversations. Forces you and I, for this meeting, have turned off all of our notifications on our Teams, chat, mobile, etc. But in a work meeting that rarely happens, right? Everything’s buzzing in the background, my emails, my Team’s chat, etc. And so when you introduce this kind of governance into a meeting, it means that it forces the mind to focus on what is being discussed, to really pay attention to the speed of my words, the tone of my voice, the way in which I’m articulating an argument, whether I’m participating or not in the meeting. Have, I said anything? Have I been unreasonably or uncharacteristically quiet in the meeting and, and call that out and bring those individuals in? And therefore we have better, more authentic and empathetic conversations because we are really focused on that conversation. And I think it’s, you know, it’s. You’ve seen it. I can’t remember who the ad is from on how to engage with, your kids and how important it is not to always have your phone in your hand. You might think this is a random example, but it’s the same principle of we will not build a connection and a relationship and therefore work through the good stuff and the difficult stuff which always comes in at, work if we’re not really understanding each other. So when you turn those distractions off, for a period of time so that you can have that conversation, it’s really, really important and it leads to much better meetings and conversations.

I absolutely agree, because we can get beyond that sort of surface level, right? We can kind of get into the real conversation. but what I feel like is sometimes what’s happening is skimming, like we’re skimming over the surface of a conversation. And yeah, you know, I find this whole area fascinating because we have all the tools to communicate simultaneously, but it doesn’t really mean that we’re genuinely communicating. Yes, exactly, exactly. And I’m just going to take a slightly different angle on this. So these are brilliant examples of how to make the virtual space more inclusive. So really think about planning the meeting environment. And I think you’re talking about principles that work for everybody. But what happens if the meeting is in person? Are there different things that you need to consider? I mean, I appreciate some of these things are transferable, like documents in advance, but are there is anything else to think about?

You’re right that the majority of things that we’ve just discussed transfer into in person meetings and hybrid meetings. There’s a couple, couple of things that would be different for an in person meeting. One is, it’s important to ask if and how somebody wants to be guided into your building or into your meeting room, don’t assume that they need help. And even if they say that they want help, make it clear that you’re there to support them so that that individual needs to tell you how they want to be guided. Again, you’ve experienced it with the Eyeware app. If somebody walks by with a white cane in our head office here, their understanding and their experience of the building will be very different to somebody else who’s also using a white cane. And somebody might not want to use a white cane in the building because they’re very familiar with it. Somebody might be quite new. So, so again, going back to the earlier point around, ask the question and ask the question from a perspective of I want to understand and I want to help. So ask if and how that individual wants to be guided, remove all of the obstacles. Everything that I said about what happens on the street with A frames and bins and scooters and lime bikes all over London applies in the building as well. So think about where you’ve left your bag, your backpack, your coat, how you’ve gotten up from your desk and pushed the chair back. These are normal behaviours. We all do them. But if somebody has an impairment, maybe they’re in a wheelchair, maybe they have a visual impairment. Those can get quite dangerous in the office. So ask how they want to be guided. Look around and make it very clear as to where people need to leave their coats, their bags, etc. And then the last one is point to some of the housekeeping stuff. Where’s the kitchen? Where’s the bathroom? Is there a fob that somebody needs to use in order to exit or enter into a particular door, etc. again, if you were hosting new people into your office, those are things that you would always, that you should always be doing. not relying on the fact that somebody can see, can interpret the signs to the bathroom or to the kitchen or the fire exit. Again, to your point, maybe they don’t read the language, they don’t speak the language in the office that you’re hosting them in and therefore that bit of safety and housekeeping is very important. Everything else is the same as with an online meeting.

Yeah, I can imagine. And I can also see that that’s particularly important or even more important in an environment where many organisations have moved to hot desking. So there’s no one set location that you’re even working in or even that you’re, you know, people are working from co working spaces even within an organisation. So I can imagine that really is even heightened because those obstacles or potential dangers are mobile. They’re constantly evolving right? That’s a good point about hot desking because we hot desk in our building as well. But we have a floor, that is a quiet floor and so again, looking at it from maybe a neurodivergence perspective, not necessarily just from a blind or partially sighted or a visual impairment perspective, but we also have desks with different types of keyboards or accessible desks that individuals can book into. So that really again ensures that your physical space is welcoming to individuals with any kind of impairment. I’ll also send you a little bit about our building here. We’ve recently won a series of awards actually about being the most accessible building, I want to say in the UK, but I’m going to go for London now, because I can’t remember off the top of my head. Well, congratulations! Thank you. We’re very, very proud. There’s still room, there’s still room for improvement. There’s certain things that we’re working on improving. Again, going back to your point around what happens if you get it wrong? Assume that you will. And the question is on the intent on making it better every single day. but there’s quite a bit around how we’ve made this building accessible in terms of visual impairments, physical disabilities, neurodivergence, etc. So there’s a couple more recommendations and insights within that literature.

Brilliant. I love that. Now as we’re coming towards the end of the episode, I know that one of the things that you have done recently is had a celebration for I think it was 200 years since Braille, Louis Braille was born, who invented the Braille language, that effectively became the way of reading with dots. I’m really curious, as you look forward, I don’t know if you look forward to 100 years or you look forward into the future, you know, what would be your sort of deepest wish and what would you want to achieve?
Okay, firstly, yes, we kicked off our Braille 200th celebration last week at the British Library. Louis Braille’s birthday is on the 4th of January. So we’ve got a big celebration of the day and then we’ve got a year long of events and opportunities for the public to engage with Braille and really understand why this is so important. But looking forward, as I said at the top, we were founded on in 1868. What really powers me and gives me energy and excites me about this work is our ambition to build the perfect country for people with sight loss. And that is a massive ambition. And we’ve got three core priorities from where we want to start from. We want to start with the eye care pathway in the UK, so the care and support that anybody who’s going through a sight loss journey is receiving, and their loved ones and their family, the other one’s around, skills and tools for modern living. So how do we ensure that we support blind and partially sighted people so that they can live a life without limits? And last but not least, it’s our mission around travel and transport because no matter what we do, if the world outside this building is inaccessible, if we can’t walk down the sideway, if you can’t navigate airports or train stations, can’t figure out if you’re on the right bus or not, then how are we going to make sure that life is really lived without limits? So that’s really my big ambition and my ask if you like, and my plea is for business partners across the UK and beyond to really engage with this agenda. I hope throughout this conversation there’s some bits that have really resonated as to how designing a world for blind and partially sighted people makes the world better for everybody. And we can maybe start with online meetings with onboarding and supporting blind or partially sighted people in employment.

I love that. Thank you so much, Daphne and I think that’s a very powerful call to action for people listening to this, like, practical ways that they can either implement themselves and also sounds like they can come to you for further resources and support with that. Definitely, if people want to connect, have conversations, find out more, deep dive into how they can do more in their organisation. What is the best way for them to kind of connect with you and continue that conversation?
I think the easiest place to find me is on LinkedIn. and yes, just message me on LinkedIn and then if I don’t know the answer internally, because there’s a lot that we do, I know where to find the right people. So LinkedIn is probably the best way to connect with me.

Brilliant. And we’ll put everything in the show notes, all those links, including your LinkedIn. Fantastic. Well, Daphne, thank you so much for your time. I really, really appreciate it. It’s been incredibly insightful. I’ve also learnt a lot along the journey of this conversation as well. And I think your messaging around how this is not just about, sort of helping one particular group of people, but actually making a more inclusive world for everybody is a very, very powerful one. So thank you so much for coming on this show. Thank you so much for having me. No worries. Well, thank you for being here and very much. Look forward to seeing everybody next time on the show. Thank you. Bye.