Conscious & Courageous Leadership with Joanna Howes

Hi, everybody, and a very warm welcome to Cultural Communication Confidence with me, Victoria Rennoldson. And I am really excited to have on the show Jo Howes with me today. Welcome to the show, Jo. Oh, thank you so much for having me. It’s brilliant to have you. And I know we got to know each other, probably through LinkedIn, I suspect. I’ve been following your posts, listening to your amazing podcast as well, And I have learned a lot myself personally about leadership, through you, and listening to your perspectives and your guests as well. So I was absolutely, really keen to have you on the show as well. And I know that our listeners who are sort of leaders and future leaders, are really keen to learn about this topic further. So, I’m going to dive straight in. We’re recording this at the beginning of 2025, and I’m really curious as to what you see is coming up for, leaders this year. Like, what do you see are the sort of big themes.

The big theme that’s coming across my pathway at the moment is people – and I’m going to say, finally – really realising that we’ve got to go beyond the job title, that we’ve got to start looking at the human being that’s showing up, and that we can’t just go, well, you’re account director, so you do this or you’re an account manager, you do this, you’re creative. It’s like, no, who are you? What do you care about? What lights you up? What are your personal values? I think companies over the last few years, rightly and brilliantly, have spent a lot of time going, well, what’s our purpose? What are our values as a company? Creating an environment for people. And that’s been great to see that be taken more seriously and not just sit in PowerPoint presentations anymore. But I think now the next level is going right. We’ve got that, there’s still something missing. And that bit that’s missing is that knowing how to understand human behaviour, how to really connect with individuals, that’s the bit now that I’m starting to see companies realise how important that is to actually invest in and put the time in. Yeah, and I absolutely resonate with that. I mean, from my perspective as well, working in often global teams, like, being human matters more than ever. And it sounds so obvious, but how do we be more human? How do we understand our humans that we work with better? It actually starts with, like, knowing yourself better. 

So I recently went into a company to train with the leadership team, and I know the person who booked the Training came very, very close to canceling it, because they were so worried, is this what they want? Are they going to find this valuable? Because it wasn’t sales training, negotiation skills. It was like self leadership. Like, know who you are. So she was like ‘Is anyone going to turn up?’ and she came so close to canceling it, but we did it and literally turned around and said, that’s one of the most valuable things we’ve ever done. Because everybody left going. I had no idea about that’s even how I thought. I didn’t realise that’s how I came across. I didn’t even know that that was a way you could connect with somebody else. And so many of them, I don’t even have got any idea what my values are. How do I even know what my values are, what my needs are, if my standards are where they need to? So it’s so wonderful being in the room with them to go, actually just spending some time getting to know you. What is important to you? Where’s your level of thinking right now? Are you showing up as the person you want to be? Who do you want to become? You know, it’s actually, there was a thing of high performers. There was a study to saying a high performer, if you say to a high performer, who do you want to become? They can answer you instantly. They know where they’re going, they know who they’re growing, and they’re doing something every day to become that person. But actually, so many leaders I meet, it’s more about all the doing versus the becoming. So if you said, like, where do you start? You got to know yourself more. Because then, I tell you what, it’s very, very easy then to connect with other people.

Yeah, I think that’s a really sort of very insightful thought for me, because that idea of busyness and doing, it feels like the pace of that is just accelerating all the time. And I know that with some of the people that I’m working with, some of the leaders and future leaders, they have that sense of, I just don’t have the space for this. So what do you say, when you come across individuals or teams or organisations who are like, that sounds great. And, I don’t know how to make the space for this. Yeah, I love it when I hear that. I never used to, because I’d go, I don’t know, what’d you do? And my answer, and a lot of people’s answer, and this is a tactic, would go, you’ve got a block space in your calendar. But that isn’t going to be sustainable. That would be for one week you might do that, but you’re just going to fall back into your bad habits. So much of it is looking at, you know, why am I not creating that space? Why doesn’t it exist? and I came up with a thought of reliant leadership. And we have this thing where we become kind of addicted to needing to be relied on, needing to be in every single meeting, every single conversation, having that sign off of what’s going on. you know, we become leaders. But when you become leaders, so many leaders then go, well, what do I do now? If I’m not involved in the day to day project, what is my role? You also have a lot of leaders experience guilt if they’re not in the trenches with their team doing everything. But what we actually are creating is a lot of reliant leadership – the leaders are too in it. So they’re not actually then going to give any time to think because they’re keeping themselves so busy, because it keeps them safe, keeps them in their comfort zone, keeps them feeling needed and validated. And then the team stop growing. So the leader then can’t get themselves out of it because they haven’t built a team that can work without them. So a lot of the time the space is there. It’s the behaviours you’ve been doing for so long and the habits you’ve got that’s not allowed yourself to extract, because extracting yourself can feel scary, because it’s a version of you and you don’t yet know how to step into that new version of you. So it’s easy to keep yourself busy than step into that new version. Does that make sense? It does. I love that thought and I’m nodding away because I recognise it in myself as a leader, from my previous careers as well as, you know, it’s easy to be busy, it’s easy to be doing. and I like your thought about actually you have to know how to make the space. It’s not just a calendar activity. So you know, that for me really resonates. And I can imagine there are lots of people listening or watching and also nodding along. So is there a first step on that journey, you know, being able to let go, to really relax and, and recognise you’re going to have to step into that more of the stretch zone and not the comfort zone?

Yeah, the first step is awareness. The first step is to have that real honest reflection put the mirror up to go, ah, yeah, that is what I’m doing and I can see why I’m doing it. So you know, we can’t change anything that we can’t see. So we need to be able to see the patterns of behaviour we’re doing. There’s something Tony Robbins talks about is like, the art of great businesses, the art of great leadership is being able to recognise your patterns and being able to change the ones that aren’t working for you. So as you say, the first step is to take the moment to go: I actually see the real problem. I’m not using the busy as a plaster over the problem. And don’t get me wrong, there are going to be some leaders sitting here listening to go, yes, but two people have just resigned. I haven’t been able to replace them yet. I’ve had to go into the weeds. That will be a fact and that’s then what you need to do. But if it’s become a long term thing that this is a pattern that keeps happening, then it looks deeper into some of your behaviours and needs as to why you’re staying there. So first step is awareness. Second step I do is, is a very quick one is you very easily just look at your calendar – it never lies. Your calendar tells you what you’re truly valuing and what you’re saying is important for you to be involved in. So one of the first steps is just look at the calendar. What is your calendar telling you? And actually very quickly we can clear 20% of things that the leaders go, do you know what? That’s time to let go of. It’s time to empower these people to do it. And then the third one is to really start tackling those limiting beliefs you have. And so many of the problems you’ve got with leaders is the need for control. So where does this belief that you’ll review everything, the fear of it being wrong, the fear of being a failure. This is when you start doing the internal work and you might need a coach to help you, a mentor or some support to help do that internal work to go, where have these beliefs come from and how can I let go of them? Change them to empower myself so I can start to empower my team. That’s the sort of, kind of. There’s other things as well, but they’re just sort of the first sort of steps to kind of think about.

Thank you so much for sharing those really practical ways. And I love the idea that it starts with your awareness and
you’ve got to take it forward and work out, look at the fears, look at the doubts that are in your mind and go through the process of letting go, through the inner work. So I really like your perspectives on this and it makes a lot of sense to me. And, I think there is something that’s going on that, that busyness, I agree the ‘yes, buts’ can happen all the time, but they can almost become the default, the kind of what is happening 100% of the time. So I really like that And I know that your podcast, just as a link to that, you know that your podcast is called the ‘Courageous Leaders Podcast’. Why is courage so important in this moment as well? I was waiting for that question – courage has got to come in here, isn’t it? Courage for me, it’s so interesting, just to kind of give you a bit of a backstory – for me, I was so shy at school, I didn’t even speak. I’m a natural introvert. I’m a retiring people pleaser and accommodator. I had beliefs that everybody was smarter than me. I kept myself hidden, kept myself small. So then, when I decided, like, no more. I can’t keep hiding. I can’t. I’ve got to change and really step into the person I want to be. It was courage. And it’s like, I need to have the courage to be me. And I went to an event that was called ‘the Courage to be you’. And I was like, that’s it. That’s what I need. So courage for me isn’t ‘right, I’m going to jump out of a plane. I’m going to do a bungee jump. I’m going to go, or I’m going to say I’m going to present to like a thousand… It’s the courage to know who you are, the courage to be vulnerable, the courage to recognise and be okay that you’re going to make mistakes. The courage to know that you can overcome those mistakes. And it doesn’t stop you in your tracks. You keep going. And the courage to try new things. The courage, you know, I got my big girl pants on now. This is quite scary. And it’s like, come on. And by having this word – and this is why I love the podcast, because the people who come on – it’s the courage to share their story. The highs, the lows, especially when you get some of the leaders to get it out. And this is what we want, is leadership isn’t about reaching perfection. 

You know, we’ve got a real problem with perfectionism at the moment, and it’s hurting a lot of people. It’s not ‘now I’m a leader I’ve got to get everything right’. And the reason the podcast exists is to normalise what it’s really like to be a leader, and it’s really tough at times. It’s really hard. You can have nights where you don’t sleep, nights where you just don’t know how to deal with that person in the team. Recognising where, you know, you’re giving and you know you’re giving and giving and giving to everybody else, not put your oxygen mask on for a long time. So it’s the courage to share what it’s really like to be a leader. And the lovely feedback we get is people go, oh, my God, I’m so glad it’s not just me. I thought it was just me. And it’s like, no, at the end of my day, we’ve got a leadership job title, but ultimately, we’re humans. And I interviewed Karen Martin recently, the CEO of BBH. She just said, like, sometimes we forget there’s a human behind the leader, and we need to remember that. So the courage has come from the courage to be you, but the courage for leaders to share is to share the truth about, normalise it and stop putting all these people on pedestals and to go, I can breathe and I can still work through this stuff. Yeah, and I think life is messy, and so is leadership, right? I think too long people have been hiding behind, like, it has to look this way. So, you know, I also really believe in this idea of ‘you do you’. You do your own version of what leadership looks like. You don’t have to copy, whether it’s Tony Robbins or whoever else it is, you do it in your own way. So I think that’s really powerful. But also the idea that the leader, because they’re not wearing the mask of perfectionism, it allows others to relax as well, right? It allows the rest of the team to go, actually, this is not working. I’m not having a great time with this. Or this isn’t, you know, how I want it to be.

Well, you set the tone, you know, and this is what I love and I do a lot of the workshops with leaders, and we do, like, the Circle of Trust stuff, we’ll do personal histories. And very much, I say to the person who’s like the CEO or the most senior in that room at that point is, you will set the tone of how vulnerable people will go, how far we’ll be able to go with the conversation. So they very, very often I’ll ask them to share first but I prep them and let them know that I’m expecting them to go. I can’t make them, they’re going to do what they do. But that’s where again, that courage comes from, to really open and people go ‘wow, I had no idea about that, about you’. And you just see the whole room change, the whole vibe change when the leader brings their human side to it. And just, you know, leadership comes in so many different forms and different forms now. And you know, we’ve got these leadership stars, that’s fine, ultimately, be you.

And how does that work? Because obviously I can see how that works in an environment where everybody is in the same physical space, in the same room, being able to be quite vulnerable and open with each other. And then I’m really conscious, you know, some of the leaders that I’m working with and perhaps listening to this podcast right now, are in spaces where they are not in the same room as their teams. Or maybe they’re a part, their team is with them. The rest of team are in many different places. So I’m curious like when that’s happening, are there ways for to bring that vulnerability, to bring that safety where people can open up to each other in a more virtual way? Or do you think that has to be in person?

So my view, and I know people got different views on that, is if you’re all online, you can bring exactly the same level of vulnerability as you can in a room. I think you get more potential, more connection in a room. But the same level of vulnerability and trust and understanding can be built online. And I’ve seen it, I’ve done it. You still get, everyone gets the goosebumps, that feeling, and it’s lovely. I think also I would always recommend you have a facilitator. You know, I think when the CEO, the MD tries to run these sessions themselves and they’re not part of the session, they don’t work as well. You do need someone who’s outside of your team to just give you all the space to do this. Whether that’s in room or online. The most challenging, but it’s still, is when you’ve got a mix of online input and in room, because the in room people will always have more power than the people online. They just do. The way the tech works, they can talk quicker they can interrupt easier, they just have more power. So that’s when it then does take a very skilled kind of facilitator if you’re really doing kind of proper workshop of understanding each other. So I would recommend, if you’re running meetings like this and the CEO and MD wants to do it, I would go and get some facilitation training. I’d actually invest on these things effectively, but again it’s, I know having the right tech, so the team can really see the room properly, the sound is good, all of those things make a massive difference. And I would also, when you’ve got both, slow down the pace and do not try and have too much content in one meeting. I see these big agendas come, and you’re like, if you’ve got a mix of hybrid and in person, you’ve got to take less out to have. So it’s quality over quantity, to really help create that connection and that
belonging between the two. But I, if I always would have a preference either all online or all in person. I also had a really big challenge recently where with the time difference we’ve got different markets so we, the people in the UK had the whole day to work together, and then I think it was the people in the States that joined at 2pm, so they’d missed the whole morning and then just joined in the afternoon, and there wasn’t that – we couldn’t find like a complete perfect workaround for it. So those things I don’t think are great. Work out how though, what new solution can we come up with for that with where we manage the time difference better.

Yeah, I think those are really sensible practical ways of thinking about it and I think you know, for me it’s often about how do you create an equitable experience, so that there isn’t this power dynamic where one group of people are having a more immersive experience, a better sense of, the connection and others just feel like on the periphery, on the side, so I have to say I completely agree with that. Whether it’s fully in person or fully virtual. I think this is, you know, definitely for me is, is the right way to go. But yeah, time differences are tricky and that comes up as well a lot in my work. You know, how do you align people? But I think something around even just turn taking, like one market is in their zone in their normal working day, and then turn taking about who’s going early or late sometimes can work, but it is a challenge. Yeah. And unfortunately some of the markets then feel quite isolated or there needs to be things maybe built on the peripheral after these workshops to reconnect with the people that weren’t in there the whole day. So we’re playing around with lots of different ways at the moment, is how we create that belonging when you’ve got the different time difference. I don’t know. I couldn’t sit here and say there’s a perfect solution yet, but I think it’s something we need to keep working on. Absolutely. And I’m quite interested. I mean from your perspective, have you seen sort of cultural nuances on leadership, on what people see as a good leader?

Yeah, it’s very interesting, in the cultural, I say it’s like the cultural expectations. So I recently did a workshop and 50% of the people in the room were from Korea but working in a UK market. And it was very interesting, because one, like a simple one of my things is the standards is no phones while you’re doing a training. But the expectation, with the CEO, the MD was in the room, is that he has to have his phone because his lineman, if he messages, expects a response immediately. Immediately. So it’s very interesting for me to understand that that was a need and a requirement that if this person messaged them, which they did regularly, I had to navigate the training to accommodate that. And when they then had to jump out of calls. Where, if that was a UK leader, I wouldn’t have accepted it. So I needed to have that cultural understanding that this is something that is an expectation for leadership within the Korean market. So that was good. And then in terms of, I’ve worked in Germany, I’ve worked in Paris and in Melbourne. And the funny thing for me was there was quite a bit of stereo, stereotypical behaviour, which I wasn’t sure would be. But like I went into Germany, the leadership, my gosh, the room was pristine. The agenda was on point. It was so… It was just – everything was just like perfect. It was so organised, so structured. I went to Italy – it was absolute chaos. I think some people forgot I was even coming. It was hilarious. And then the Spanish, it was quite – there was quite a competitive, there was lots of voices. Come on. It’s quite a fast pace. So it was very interesting working in the different markets. And I don’t like stereotype, but there was that quite stereotypical behaviour that you’re, you’re told about that you would get. But I think there’s the cultural lens versus also the human being lens. And I also think it could be quite challenging for a leader who’s maybe from the States, goes and works in a different market, because mixing up those different expectations and like the expectations, you’re used to, the expectations now in the market that you’re in. I see a lot of leaders do struggle with that.

Yeah, I think that’s a really interesting point because I think we assume it will be the same, particularly if somebody’s working across the organisation that they’re familiar with, that they know it, that they assume the organisational culture will be the predominant perspective. But actually what I’ve noticed in my work is that cultural nuances can really throw the dynamics of being a leader and actually can almost unsettle people who are very, very senior have always been quite successful, but suddenly finding their leadership style isn’t quite working in the same way with the people that they’re now working with. And I think that’s a challenge, because it’s recognising there are those nuances. And I agree, we need to avoid the stereotyping, and we need to probably be curious and understand like, what motivates these people, what’s important to them. Like the phone on the desk, is just an absolute no brainer for that person. Yeah, just such a fascinating area. And I think, if you said what’s the, you know, apart from leadership this year, is you know, you say get be more curious. You’ve got to actually I think, leadership eventually, I think you’ll end up needing to do psychology degree. I think the human behavioural side of leadership is huge now. But I think adaptability is absolutely key for 2025, because being adaptable in your communication, yes, you’ve got the cultural lens but just even just with different people generally, is being willing. Like in my team, I’ve got someone in Nigeria, the Philippines, South Africa, Romania, UK. I’m needing to adapt my communication all the time. Like Romania, it’s very direct communication. With the Philippines, confrontation is like a no. And even giving and receiving feedback, you know, it’s taken a long time to get comfortable with giving and receiving feedback, because it’s quite a hierarchy thing. So for them to give me feedback was like no, I don’t, you know it’s Miss Jo. My name is Miss Jo. Mr Kevin. And so that’s different. So the patience to realise that this is something I can’t just do something, I can’t just expect this person to be – my culture is in my company. I’ve got to recognise I need to help them learn how to give feedback, how to receive feedback. I’ve had to do numerous one to ones to go: it’s safe, we’re not attacking you, we’re helping you, and getting to see feedback in a whole new way, which I didn’t necessarily need to do with people in South Africa. So I think that patience and adaptability and willingness to keep repeating, like repetition, you need to do as well, before you see it really land. This person now feels something that was totally not their cultural norm to do, and have that appreciation, it’s going to take them more time than if you’d maybe hired someone within your own culture.

Yeah, I like that idea of patience, because again, if we loop back to some of the conversations we’re having at the beginning of today, actually patience is something that we don’t often value enough, in the sense of slowing down, having to confirm things, being able to help people on that journey. But I suppose, you know, once the understanding is there, that comes back to being human, then we have that connection, and then we can work back together. And you just made me think of a point. A, huge learning we’ve had to have is the – because we’ve got so many different cultures, and I think there’s only myself, and one other whose first language is English, we’ve had to, we need to do more verbal communication than written, because especially on Slack, you know, sometimes it’s like, right, can you get this done? It’s just very – that did not work at all, because everyone was suddenly making it, thought they were being attacked. Someone thought it was too short. Some people wanted the ‘good morning, how are you’ first, which is obviously on Slack, you just go, it’s quick. So we’ve realised that any, anything that’s not just a very, a task, very easy task related thing, needs to be a phone call. Interesting. And actually that’s really a good point, because whether it’s Slack or Teams, Messenger or whatever messenger platform people are using, your communication can get quite short, sharp and curt sometimes. And that can also lead to all sorts of misunderstanding and miscommunication about your tone of voice. So I love that idea to actually just picking up the phone, having a conversation. How revolutionary!

Well, we had to do it. We had literally had a situation just before Christmas, where I gave some feedback over Slack and then somebody else followed up that feedback, and it was a mistake on my behalf because I was trying to, I was about to jump on a call, but they needed to get on with it. So I didn’t give it the thought that I needed to. I just, it was very task written. They read it, took offence to it. Obviously that was not my intention at all, but it got misinterpreted massively, and we ended up the whole team being on a Zoom call for about an hour just talking and understanding, well, stating my intention, understanding how they took it, helping them realise and what it did do is it led to an amazing gift of us all even understanding each other in another level, and we all went incredibly vulnerable to share, you know and we were able to like, this is how that made me feel. It was the most powerful probably team conversation we’ve ever had. So it was a massive wake up call for me to go: I’m working with people who have had such different upbringings to me, have got very different beliefs to me. I can’t, I can’t just chuck something on Slack because I’m rushing to a meeting. It needs more thought, and if you go ‘it’s going to slow me down’. Well it will slow me, because then I needed to have an hour’s call to explain it. And it was a good call, but you can’t do that all the time. Yeah. But if I just had to think for a moment, pause: what’s the outcome I want? What’s the outcome I want from this? How do they receive stuff? How do I enter their world and not make it how I would receive stuff and be okay with? You do save yourself. It takes more time initially, but it saves so much time in the long term. It’s huge.

I can imagine, I mean I can imagine that situation and you know, actually, that’s the sort of brilliant answer to ‘well, I don’t have time to slow down and explain everything in detail’. When it goes wrong, it will take even more time to sort out, and I think that’s a really great example. So, thank you so much for sharing that personal example as well. As we’re coming towards the end of this episode, I’m really sort of interested about your own personal leadership evolution and journey. And I’d just love to know something you’ve been reflecting on personally or what you think is important for yourself as a leader, as you’re coming into this year. Great question – let me think about that. Something I’ve become very – my whole thing is becoming more conscious. You know, you get awareness but then you get aware that you’re aware. It’s like the secondary – you can actually see yourself doing things. Well, in the seven years I’ve really been doing all this personal development, I’m now at that point, and it just suddenly clicked. I was like, wow, my conscious brain is so alert now. And another way to try and explain this, you know when you have that voice on your shoulder that says, you want to go to the gym, but the other voice is going, no, no, no, no, no. Well, the voice that kept saying no, no, go and watch that Netflix. Go and watch another Netflix. Go and watch another Traitor’s way, was always the louder voice, always won the argument. And what’s really interesting for me this year, is the voice that’s telling me to go to the gym is now louder. And it’s been a really interesting shift. So what I’m really focusing on this year is just really nurturing that and really keep building the muscle to be more conscious in the choices I’m making, the actions I’m doing, how I communicate, what I say yes to, what I say no to, versus just going into autopilot and into, you know, doing things where, you know, you do something, you go, why did I do that? And that’s the bit I’m now going, I don’t want to do that anymore. I want to live more consciously. Because if I’m living more consciously, I’m going to show up so much better for my team. They’re going to start becoming more conscious in their actions and we’re going to make much better decisions. And I’m already noticing, I’ve already started this year, so I’ve come back from holiday and in the holiday I went to the gym every day. I wouldn’t have done that before, but I’m so conscious of my health now. I’m so conscious of the standards that I want to show up with. I’m so – I hired a nutritionist last year because I want more energy, so I’m conscious of the food I put in my body. So this real, another way of saying is, personal responsibility. 2025 for me is personal responsibility and keeping things simple. Fantastic.

Amazing. I love it. And I really – that idea of consciousness being deeper than awareness, I think that is really exciting and I’m really excited as well to see how things go for you, Jo, because I know you’ve got big, big plans ahead. So as we’re coming towards this, this end now, it’s a real shame because I’ve loved talking with you and I know, the listeners as well will have had a lot of value of insights from you today. So thank you so much for sharing. But if people want to know more about you, follow you. Maybe if there’s anything new you’ve got coming up you want to share, you know, what are the best places for people to kind of connect and find out more about your world?

So I live on LinkedIn a lot, so I love connecting with people on LinkedIn. I post pretty much every single day. I really like just to keep sharing advice and giving people posts to lift them for the day or give them something to think about. And then this year, we are going to be launching our new signature leadership program, which is very much focused on teams, helping teams. What we’re seeing at the moment is there’s a lot of leadership teams that are broken right now. They’re misaligned, there’s low trust. They’re working in silos, they’re not working in collectives, which is really slowing down decision making. So we really are having a huge focus this year on connecting teams, building that awareness, building that trust. So they operate as one. And this whole thing for me is that they win together. You don’t have just one head of departments, one. And everyone else is like, oh, we’re struggling. It’s like, no, you come together, you’re running – you leave the job title out. You’re coming together as one team, driving the business results. So we’ve put something together to really help teams be able to do that. And I’m very, very excited about it. That sounds brilliant, and I can imagine that’s going to be hugely valuable. So LinkedIn is the best place for people to connect with you, follow you, also highly recommend your podcast, again in the show notes. I love the podcast, so I’m a great fan. But, Jo, thank you so much for coming on the show. I really appreciate it. I know you’ve got a very busy schedule, but it’s been brilliant to hear you, your perspectives on leadership and how you see things changing in the coming years as well. So thank you so much. Thank you. I’ve loved it. Thank you so much.